Breaking the Binaries of Gender & Politics with Thu Nguyen
Happy Nonbinary People’s Day folx (7.19.21)! This week, Josh dives into conversation with Thu Nguyen about nonbinary identity, running for local office, and the power of community.
Thu Nguyen is a proud Vietnamese refugee, an artist, a youth worker, and the first non-binary candidate for Worcester City Council At-Large. Over the last decade, Thu has dedicated their career to serving our young people, from facilitating after school programming at the Worcester Youth Center to hiring young people for Recreation Worcester to work at our local parks and schools across the city. Thu currently works at the Southeast Asian Coalition working with and supporting small businesses, promoting civic engagement, and strengthening communities. Most recently, during the COVID-19 pandemic, Thu helped build Mutual Aid Worcester, which has raised nearly $75,000 to support families in Worcester and tackled food insecurity by starting an immigrant and refugee pantry and hot meals program.
Listen to Public Hearing wherever you get your podcasts and on WICN 90.5FM, Worcester’s NPR affiliate station. And, while we celebrate women all year round, our guests for the month of March are all women who live, influence, and/or impact the City of Worcester, MA. Learn more about our show at PublicHearing.co
Transcript for this episode
Joshua Croke (00:03):
Hello Worcester and the world and happy Nonbinary People’s Day. As a reminder, I am your host, Joshua Croke, a proud, queer, enby (non binaries nickname), resident of Worcester and this is the Public Hearing podcast, a radio show about cities, communities and designing equitable and just futures. And I have a little bit of an allergy situation going on. So my voice is a bit raspier than you're used to hearing. But today we're talking with Thu Nguyen of fellow nonbinary human in our city who works with the Southeast Asian Coalition and is running for City Councilor at Large in Worcester's upcoming election in November. Today, we're diving a bit into the stories of Thu and my identity, as well as exploring topics that center inclusion, equity and justice in Worcester's continued growth and development. This is the Public Hearing podcast and radio show. Public Hearing is available wherever you listen to podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM on Wednesdays at 6:00 PM Worcester’s only NPR affiliate station. Thu, thank you for being here. I always like to let guests introduce themselves since we're much more complex as beings than what one could read on our LinkedIn profiles. So I invite you to share any parts of your social location, background, and affiliations that you'd like to bring into this space today. And thanks again so much for being here.
Thu Nguyen (01:25):
Thank you so much for having me. So hi everyone, I'm Thu, I'm a queer, Vietnamese nonbinary refugee. I grew up in Main South Worcester, and yeah, currently I'm working for the Southeast Asian Coalition and running for Worcester City Council. I consider myself a sunset chaser and a youth worker and just a lover of beautiful things in the world.
Joshua Croke (01:48):
Great. Well, thank you so much for being here and it is Nonbinary People's Day on the day, this episode is airing and I'm so excited to share in this space with a fellow enby and really for listeners who might not be familiar with nonbinary and gender non-conforming identity I'm really excited to talk to a fellow person who has, you know, gone through the experience of better understanding one's identity. And obviously every experience that people have in this space is very different and we kind of come to these realizations at different moments. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your story and what your nonbinary identity means to you.
Thu Nguyen (02:35):
Yeah. So for me, nonbinary is not really being in the boxes of the gender binary of man or woman. And for me, that actually means being very in creation in co-creation with the world and how I express and navigate the world. And, you know, I remember when I was young, I think I was six. I was like, oh, I really wish I was a boy, you know, and at this time I only knew as girls and then there's boys. And I remember being six, like just praying every day to become a boy. And then when I reached middle school, I was like, oh my God. I learned like what being a lesbian was, you know, that you could be attracted to someone of the same sex. And I was like, oh, that's what I am. And it was like a light bulb moment.
Thu Nguyen (03:28):
That felt very freeing. And then as I got older, you know, in college, I was like, wait, you know, I don't really feel in my fullness, you know, just thinking of being queer. And so then I had these like, you know, moments of like, well, what if I wanted to express myself differently? That was like, not so because, you know, even in the community, we tend to box each other and like, people were like calling me a stud or a butch and I'm just like, that's not how I identify. I feel like that was a huge eraser of my feminine side as well. Even if people acknowledged, you know my female or, you know, womeness and I was like, wait, there's something that's missing. And I remember just kind of going with the flow and just like, kind of just existing.
Thu Nguyen (04:15):
Right. And it wasn't until recently where I really ran for city council that I was like, I'm nonbinary. And it wasn't because, you know, there was a piece of me that was hiding. It was just like, I've just existed in my fullest expression and didn't feel like, oh, I needed to like, you know, tell everyone I was coming into interaction with. But you know, there is a way in which I think it was very important to start educating people that there's a different way of, you know, being our fullest humanity and especially, you know, really pushing the bounds of what queerness and being nonbinary is because for young folx who are kind of went through the stages I went through or are not learning that there's nonbinary, like it could be very limiting. You know, you feel like wait, I'm free, but there's a way to be freer. And you're like constantly trying to formulate that. And so that's kind of my journey towards being nonbinary. And I just, I feel like it's a gift. It's a gift to constantly learn about yourself, your body, your humaness, and how you want to show up in the world.
Joshua Croke (05:24):
Something that I think is so powerful in that is like discussing the like constant journey of existence and living, and always growing and adapting and learning new things and integrating different things that resonate with you into your life. And that's one of the really strong things about nonbinary identity that I was like, yes, this describes me so much better than anything I've ever been able to articulate before. And for listeners who might be newer to, or might be hearing this term for the first time Thu, you also mentioned like the gender binary. And so I want to just highlight for a moment, the concept that gender is this construct that has been made in society surrounding, but not inclusive or fully representative of like sex. Right. And so thinking about the gender binaries of man and woman, and what those associated or like what those identities really mean and how society has constructed them.
Joshua Croke (06:32):
Like the, you know, I always think of like the question of like, who wrote the book on it not being okay for boys to like pink, right. And I feel like there's this evolution in now, especially with, you know, women's rights and like women coming into the workplace and like shedding this stereotype of having to exist in like one specific form as like housewife or, you know, mother or, you know, we have women CEOs and we're still challenging gender binaries and like gender stereotypes and who should have access to what things because of who they are. But so being nonbinary and gender nonconforming is really a continuation of that shattering these stereotypes and these expected behaviors in these boxes that we put people in that really limit people's ability to thrive and feel fulfillment. And that is inclusive of people who are born male, who identify as men who want to do ballet, right?
Joshua Croke (07:38):
Like there are stereotypes in society that exists that limit everyone's ability to truly thrive and come into their themselves fully. And, you know, I always was when I was a kid, I grew up going thrift shopping, like constantly my grandmother and my mother were big thrifters and we would always go in and I would always gravitate towards like the girl's side of clothes. And I'd be like, oh, I like that. Like, that's really cute, but was told so young, like, no, that's the girl's clothes. You have to go over to the boys clothes. And that when I was a kid, it didn't make sense. I was like, why it's just there hanging on the same racks, right? Like, why can't I go over and grab that? And so this narrative that people have to fit something that other people that society has constructed as, like, this is what you can do.
Joshua Croke (08:28):
This is what you can't do. This is who you can be. This is who you can't be is something that I love, you know, folx for helping to educate me and understanding the difference between my gender identity, my gender presentation, my sexual orientation and that identity and how there's similarities and differences is similar to some of your story. I came out as gay much, much earlier than I came out as nonbinary, because I had the term for it. And like, it was like that aha moment. You know, I grew up very conservative Christian family. I honestly did not hear the term gay until I was like in the sixth grade. Like that's how successful like social suppression was and like my access to like understanding the things that I was feeling. Cause it wasn't discussed it wasn't talked about except for in ways that was like fire and brimstone, you're going to hell language.
Joshua Croke (09:28):
Right. And so I was like gay, oh my God. And then I sunk right into that and gravitated toward that. I was like, cause it's so much more representative of who I am, but there was always something that didn't feel total or fully representative of who I was or my experience. And I didn't have the language. I didn't have the terminology that really helped me kind of push through and into that. And in our earlier conversation, you mentioned the limitation of language, like feeling the limitation of language all the time. And I was wondering if you could talk to me a little bit more about that.
Thu Nguyen (10:09):
Yeah. So I'm also a writer and I feel like, you know, in the world that we live in, there's not enough words to express all that we are, all that we feel. Right. I also wanted to just even think about like history. Right. and how many of the ways that we're thinking in the English language is very Western, right? So like, like queerness, trans, like, you know, and the indigenous way, we, you know, there's the saying of like two-spirited and there's many other cultures before colonization had terminology for you know, being nonbinary or being queer in a different way. And so, you know, thinking in English, I feel like there's just limited language to express. I remember growing up and thinking about the, you know, the notion of the possibly being trans. And I remember just thinking like, oh, well I don't want to transition my gender.
Thu Nguyen (11:08):
That's not how I feel. And once again, it was like that limited language in that moment until you learn the term nonbinary. And then you're like, woah, this term nonbinary of not being within these confines means that like, we're able to create something else that's out of the construction that you were talking about, the gender construction that you were talking about. And that for me, it's freeing and also that we all have, we all are able to build a different relationship with our “nonbinaryness”, as you mentioned because in all my sense of being nonbinary might be different from someone else. I remember a lot of people when I was first started running and so many people were like really like, I think really like beyond accepting and you know, like really supportive of me sharing that was nonbinary, but the first fundraiser, everyone kind of assumed like that I would go with the pronoun they.
Thu Nguyen (12:13):
Instead of like, I go by any pronouns that with love and respect, but I think it was like, once again, we have these like assumptions of, “oh, nonbinary, also must mean that you're androgynous, you know, or that like there's a specific notion of being nonbinary. And for me it's like, no, that means like we're in this space of imagination of what it means to be in another, like, I don't know, realm of gender. Right, In a way that fits us, meets our needs. And actually I'm Vietnamese. I was recently learning that trans like the word for trans in Vietnamese is chuyễn giới, which actually means to transition into another realm. And so for me, like that language, that wording in Vietnamese feels like absolutely full, you know, especially it being my, you know, mother tongue, but, you know, to think about like transitioning into another world, it's not about transitioning to another gender. It's about really once again, moving into another space of imagination of co-creation.
Joshua Croke (13:20):
Wow. That is really powerful. It's like I get this, the word that just came to mind to me was like ascension like into one's truest form, which I think is really, really beautiful. And, you know, for folx listening and you mentioned pronouns and thank you for doing so you know, coming off Pride Month in June. And hopefully people are still having the important conversations about inclusion that they need to be having outside of the kind of defined month. But for listeners, if you're new to the pronouns conversation, he, she, they, there are other versions. There are other pronouns that people use. Thu, I appreciate that you say, like, that are pronouns that are used like lead with love or like, you know, good intention, like actual resonant intention, not just like, like, oh, I'm trying to be a good person intention, but like resonant intention and like lead with love.
Joshua Croke (14:17):
But if folx are like in the camp of, “oh, it’s just confusing cause like they, them pronouns, it's plural. It's like really hard for me.” I have two examples that I would like to use just to highlight the fact that we actually use, they, them pronouns as singular all the time. If you're sitting in a cafe and someone left their table and you go up to the barista and say, “I think someone left their book on the table,” you are using, they them pronouns in a singular way. If you're at an art museum and you're talking to a friend about art, that's hanging on the wall and you say, “I really love that piece. I love the way that they, you know, really captured her likeness or her essence.” Right. You again, just use they, them pronouns in a singular way.
Joshua Croke (15:01):
So now back to the conversation, but that was a quick, they, them pronouns one-on-one cause I do use they, them pronouns. But to your point when there is like love, positive intention and like the commitment to learning that is when I am totally okay. If like people mis-gender me all the time because I have a beard, I present pretty masculine. And so I get a lot of he’s. Which is fine when I correct you, work on it, if you screw up, work on it again. But you know, there are folx out there who specifically and intentionally refuse to use one's chosen pronouns. That's when we got a problem. But yeah. Thank you for saying that about language and like the notion of like Westernized cultures impact on how we have words to, and don't have words to talk about, you know, parts of who we are.
Joshua Croke (16:05):
You know, I've always felt that my man-ness and femininity actually compliment each other way more than they contradict each other. And when we talk about that in like the community context, like how one's being impacts the broader community in which they're a part of, you know, I talk a lot about the, critically important effort of creating spaces in which people can truly be their authentic selves because we know it leads to healthier communities. It leads to increased innovation, which impacts the economy and, you know, all sorts of stuff. I just started reading this book by a woman named Heather McGee called The Sum of Us. And it talks about the notion that that racism impacts everybody and not just, you know, folx of color and talks about like the fact that there were instances in American history where instead of integrating a community pool, that was like this publicly accessible feature for the community that, you know, white, black, brown folx from the community could, you know, experience and appreciate. When people pushed for integration
Joshua Croke (17:27):
They instead of accepting, you know, white folx and black folx being able to use that community resource. There are instances like in Alabama where they filled the pool in with dirt cemented over it and covered it and completely removed it from the community. So when we talk about like public services and public good and truly like embracing inclusion and celebrating diversity in space, we know that that has impacts on how we kind of exist in the world. And so I want to kind of with this thread of celebrating identity and diversity and Worcester is an incredibly diverse and beautiful community. Let's talk about the city, you're running for city council. What inspired you to get into the race?
Thu Nguyen (18:18):
Yeah. I just want to rewind a bit, cause I think you just shared such a beautiful, powerful you know, segment where I think like healing is so important and reconciliation in regards to like, I think honestly, we are only as human, like our depths of our humanity is as deep as we see in other people, you know, like we treat people how we treat ourselves. And so, you know, when we do things to really harm others, and we “other” others, like what is that saying about the pieces of us that we're othering inside of us? You know, I'm not saying like one world or like, I feel black inside because, you know, it's more like, you know, if I can't see the compassion of someone loving someone else and I like choose to like, hate that, like what does that really say about how deep I feel love? Right. And so, you know, I think what you just shared is so powerful and the ways in which we have to be whole, you know, and in order to be whole, we have to be more accepting and loving and nurturing and compassionate, you know, the ways in which other people show up in our lives. So thank you so much for sharing that.
Joshua Croke (19:34):
Absolutely. And I'd like to highlight again, a piece that you mentioned relative to love, because that is such a complex term for me. And I feel like so many folx describe love in different ways. And so when we talk about it in our interpersonal, you know, relationships in our own personal, like love of oneself, I think is so critically important to truly like love oneself, allows you to really celebrate and love others. And that is a constant journey for so many folx, especially for those of us who are marginalized and in various ways, when the world tells us that we shouldn't be loved or are not deserving, it is really a difficult journey to actualize that for oneself. And I think the critical piece of love for me is like, love action, over love feeling, right? The, you know, and this is something that hits very personal to me and kind of my background and story, having family who are very unsupportive of my identity and like who I am, and like the person that Joshua is now is not the person that oftentimes people project, they want you to maintain being.
Joshua Croke (20:51):
And I have, you know, to go back to ascension, I have ascended past that past self, and I am no longer that person. And it's like, you know, like shedding many layers of skin to truly expose like the real, you know, person that I am. And so love action, especially when we're talking about addressing the harms of systemic violence and oppression like racism. It is not simply enough to feel love towards others if you don't act on their behalf to dismantle systems that have been built around them to lead to, you know, to oppress and to marginalize and to other. And so I think that there are a lot of folx who may be listening, who are, you know, post the BLM you know, black box on Instagram, but aren't necessarily doing the work to continue educating ourselves as to all right, I might be leading with love and I might meet a black person in my community and be like very supportive and embracing and loving toward that person. But what am I doing to dismantle the structures that continue to oppress these folx in our community? So I wanted to just highlight and circle and dive a little deeper to you when you talk about love, how love feeling versus love action for me is something that is really important.
Thu Nguyen (22:18):
Yeah. And, you know, I think as an activist and a community organizer growing up, you know, people always like imagine revolutions, right? It's like, oh, when are we going to dismantle? And like, you know, revolt or whatever. And I feel like for me, it's really has been like an evolution. It's more of a, how do we evolve love, how do we evolve the feeling of love into this action that we, you know, do for the greater good of everyone, you know, for the collective liberation? And so thank you for sharing that. And so, you know, in terms of my run, I think it really is deeply seated in what you just shared. I never really considered running. I don't consider myself, like I'm not trying to get a political career out of running for Worcester City Council. I've always considered myself, a youth worker, a community organizer, just someone that really cares, you know, I lead with my integrity and my moral compass more than anything, I just also like to hang out and just, as I mentioned, catch the sunset.
Thu Nguyen (23:27):
So running for city council is like way beyond my imagination. But I would say that last year was very difficult. And pretty sure for many of us, it was a tough year, 2020. The pandemic happened and we saw the ways in which a lot of communities were left behind. And really not at the decision-making tables, they were not having access to resources when it came to, you know, stimulus checks, food banks, you know, so many ways in which community were left behind. And so I was already trying to meet the needs of the community. I think that was kind of my beginning stages when I was supporting Mutual Aid Worcester and really trying to create these structures to get folx what they needed during this time. We basically launched off, right when, you know, Massachusetts went into lockdown, shutdown mode, and then, you know, as I was doing all this community stuff, I was like, whoa, and mind you, I work at the Southeast Asian Coalition.
Thu Nguyen (24:35):
I have always worked with young folx of color and immigrants and refugees. So, you know, the inequities is not new, you know, my understanding of these things, systemic racism and those kinds of things was not new, but I think it was hitting my heart so much harder because you're really seeing people be sacrificed, you know, during COVID if, you know, people wanted to say like, oh yeah, let's make, do outreach to tell people to wash their hands when you’re like some people are choosing between food and like toiletries right now. You know, it's not as simple as people are taking it to be. And these people are being sacrificed when they're unemployed and there's no resources to support them. When, you know, some folx got stimulus checks and undocumented folx don't, and they don't feel safe going to get food at food banks because they ask for ID’s
Thu Nguyen (25:29):
And so, you know, there's ways in which people literally, you know, we noticed the issues, we see the problems yet when you choose to not do something about it, you're saying these people aren't worth saving, you know, these people aren't worth helping these people are basically worth dying. And so that was when I was like, whoa, you know, so I just started doing so much more, but, you know, I don't think one person or Mutual Aid Worcester you know, could do the structural change that we need. You know, like I think we started doing an ideological framework shift to, you know, teach people solidarity, not charity, and to be like, you give money without, you know, all of these conditions, you know, that's what really is impactful to help people. And then, you know, last summer, or at least starting in May with the murder of George Floyd, I think, as you mentioned there about sharing of like Black Lives Matter nationally, and the protest is really made me think a lot about myself and my role in the movement.
Thu Nguyen (26:42):
As I mentioned, I have been a community organizer helping on the ground. And then we were seeing the ways in which I would say our city council didn't do much to listen to the community. I think community had to fight so hard to be heard. And they weren't heard at the end of the day. And so I was like seeing, you know, different places in the nation where people started, you know, figuring out systemic ways to reallocate, you know, funding or to, you know, support with sheltering people and all these ways and I was like, okay, maybe as an individual, I shouldn't be strategic. You know, I'm from Worcester. I have done a lot of community work. A lot of people know me. I think we could actually build something here. You know, I wanted to invest in the city. I think oftentimes we look at, you know, AOC or we look at Boston and we look at other places when it's like, we could have that here in Worcester. Like we just need to start building it together. And so I felt the responsibility, as you mentioned, to put my love to action. I was already acting, but it was just like, how do I move to the next evolution of what my love could look like to meet the demands of what's happening in our city and in our nation.
Joshua Croke (28:03):
When you talk about inaction from current city council, one of the things that jumps to my mind and is present is the, I know that there are folx out there whose response is, but they are doing things, you know, dot, dot, dot. And there's like this level of, I think as a young person running for city council, you're gonna face and probably have already faced this kind of like ageism of like, well, you're just that young millennial person who's running, who doesn't, isn't happy with anything. You know, these things take time, right? Like the “these things take time” argument is like, but what takes time? And how long have we actually been spending, right? Like just because someone's facing like the reality of racism for the “first time,” I'm using air quotes for the “first time.” Right. In our community, that doesn't mean that this is a new thing, right? This has been hundreds of years in our country's history that we've been facing. So what is “these things take time” and like, what is the intention behind when people say that? So I'm wondering, like, to the folx who might be listening, who are thinking like, oh, you know, like, but they're doing what they can at the pace that they can, these things take time. How do you respond to that?
Thu Nguyen (29:30):
Well, I think we have to look at history, you know, throughout history youth were the ones who really pushed us to, you know, get our civil rights, these were of the people who pushed us to do better. And so I am always mindful of elders, you know, especially my elders in the movement. But I also want to remind people that just in general, our nation we progress because of our young folx. Right. And so, yeah. And I also try to remind people that I'm 30 now, which is like, I'm in this bridge of actually I'm running because I want young people to see themselves, you know, being able to be a part of the government's, be part of decision-makers. I think it's very gaslighting to say that, oh, it takes time or that, oh, you're too young. Like, no, once again, history says that young folx always led a lot of the fights.
Thu Nguyen (30:26):
And so that's one is what I would say two, is that, you know, it takes time, but like right now our city council doesn't really reflect Worcester. You know, it's like, if you reflect me and you tell me, it takes time, I will listen. And I will be like, wow, teach me the wisdom that you've experienced. Right. But if you look nothing like me and you keep telling me, it takes time, it just looks like this, you know, systemic way of just telling me to shut up and be silent. And so I think we really need to, you know, think about that. And as someone who like has worked in nonprofit, worked for the city and knows code switching really well. I think we have to be creative to match the ways in which yes, there's red tape and bureaucracy, and that, like, this is a system that we're interacting with, but we also have to, once again, look at the nation and look at the other creative ways in which people have, you know, done things.
Thu Nguyen (31:27):
If Austin was able to reallocate funds to buy a hotel, to become a homeless shelter, we can use that model. Right. So like, I'm not even talking about like, oh, these things are impossible. It takes time. It's like, there's a model right over there. The same way that we looked at Lowell and was like, wait, they redistrict their school committee. And we were like, wait, we're going to follow that model there's models everywhere. So why aren't we using it? You can't tell me that it worked over there and it can't work here because it takes time, you know, evidence-based.
Joshua Croke (32:05):
So, I want to add two things to that kind of, again, kind of like double click, or maybe just emphasize some of the things that you were saying that the first is the budget as a moral document. And the second is the impact of like people having a code switch to make things happen and move. Right. And so the first, like talking about the budget as a moral document, looking at this is something that, you know, as you know, I run a consulting business, focus on taking action, right through design, looking at design as the way that we create solutions by identifying challenges. And as an equity center designer is very much rooted in, I facilitate the exploration of solving problems with the people who are most impacted by them. Right. I bring a lot of knowledge, experience and skill, but I will never always have the shared lived experience of the people whose challenges that we're facing.
Joshua Croke (33:05):
And so as we look at the impact that local politics can have, right? Your position as a city counselor, if you were to be elected that you have a say in monitoring and pushing back or asking for changes to the city's budget, where we see dollars being allocated in places that might not be where they should be being allocated to have the type of impact that we're looking to have as a community. Right. And I speak of community as like the broad based community of the people who are being most negatively impacted by poor decisions and feel like, and are being left behind in those decisions because we prioritize tourism over homes or, you know, housing, right? Whatever that might be. The second, and this, I just want to put kind of a bow on the conversation that we were having earlier about our identities and like this notion of like code switching to, you know, integrate into the system to try and move it and shape it from within, it's like your playing, you know, double time when you're like, all right, I have to not only communicate my intention and the importance of this work in a way that is going to resonate with these people, but I also have to be making sure that I'm not too queer and off putting these people who might not be ready to accept my identity, or I'm like not reflecting or showing as visible my connections to my culture, which is separate from the dominant one within the space.
Joshua Croke (34:50):
And so I think that's another thing that I encourage listeners to really think about is when we talk about being able to show up as one's authentic self, how much we can do as community, when we don't have to think about covering in these various ways. And like I hate, and I am proud to be at a point now where I, most of the time unabashedly will walk through a door, wearing my heels, like, you know, being in full face of makeup, big beard, and be like, all right, this is what we need to talk about. And if y'all aren't paying attention to me, just because I look this way, you need to rethink your priorities. However, I still do find myself in positions where I'm like, I'm going to be sitting at a table where there's dominant power dynamics. And I know that based on the people that are going to be around this table, this is what I have to wear today. And this is how I have to talk. And this is how I have to kind of be prepared for these conversations. And that, in my opinion is time wasted to doing the work. But we know that we have to do that to make people hear us sometimes. I wonder if you have kind of thoughts about that.
Thu Nguyen (35:59):
Yeah, I completely agree. And this is why like representation matters. And I think it's not just like, oh, we need any queer personnel. We need any nonbinary person, but you know, someone who is actually in the community and reflects the community and people could see themselves in this person. And that's why a lot of my run is really to encourage young folx, you know, encourage nonbinary folx, refugees, you know, Asian folx, anybody who could really connect with me to really see themselves at decision making tables. Like my run is to shift the political landscape and the imagination of people, you know, because people aren't going to vote unless they're like, wait, what is, you know, what is my connection? Why is this relevant to me? And so the more that we're able to shift these tables so that people don't feel like they have to code switch all the time that they have to compromise, you know, sacred parts of their bodies and their beings.
Thu Nguyen (36:59):
The more that we could actually, once again, et's get to the main focus. You know, it's like if we have to fight so hard tooth and nail to walk into a room and sit down, like sometimes for young folx that that's like 90% of the energy when they show up in school, you know, and that's heartbreaking. It's like, nah, let's get to the point. You're here to learn. Right. Or like you are here to become a city counselor, and you're here to sit at these, you know, decision-making tables to support the community. Like the more that we could just cut out that code switching time, the better. I also think the code switching is not just like, I feel like code switching is also about like how we talk about our ideologies. Right. I remember working for the city and the division of youth opportunities and we're like, huh, the word justice feels controversial.
Thu Nguyen (37:55):
Like it was the weirdest thing to be like, should we say the word justice, because justice on its own feels like it should be like something that everyone wants. But now when you say the word justice and you're like, well, I think I'm too radical. Right. And so how do I, you know, when I do this run that I really don't code switch the needs of the community. Right. I'm tired of doing that. And when also you're sitting in a room and, you know, any average community member comes in and they're sharing their heart. Right. And then people are like, well, how does that translate to budget? Or how does that translate to policy? And it's like, wait, you're missing what's happening here. Because like, most folx don't know how to code switch into this system. They don't know how to say big words or like the, you know, governmental words.
Thu Nguyen (38:50):
And so like, how do we actually make the system and government accessible to people versus people having to walk into the government as if they were taught these things? To be quite honest, like I wasn't taught to vote, like I grew up, I went to Worcester public school and I wasn't taught to vote. No one told me to, until, you know, I went to college and of course it was like, Obama's second election. And so I was gonna vote anyways. But, you know, I had these conversations with my college peers who are, you know, often more wealthy white folx. And they were like, yeah, like everyone, like it's our duty to vote. We always have to vote. And I was like, wait, growing up, no one taught me those things. And so when I think about Worcester and, you know, normal folx in Worcester and how we're lacking because of the system.
Thu Nguyen (39:44):
And then all of a sudden, in order to change the system, you need to like get through all these loopholes, you have to code switch XYZ just for them to hear you. Because if not, you're not good enough to be heard, even though like this impacts your life. And even when people try, you're still being shut down as if you don't matter. Like for me, accessibility and code switching, I was like, we need to just cut that out. Like we need to make it accessible so that people don't have to code switch their bodies to be, you know, make it being decision-makers in their own city.
Joshua Croke (40:20):
I think one of the most powerful tools of the white supremacist agenda is how much it acknowledges and uses fatigue as a weapon, right? Like, and fatigue is so real, right? That constant like thousand cuts concept of it is exhausting, right? It is exhausting to do this work. It is exhausting to like live in spaces in which you are constantly challenged in your existence. And that's why I think so much of like liberation movement is about also centering joy or like finding joy in that work. And so it like fuels, I find so much energy and exhaustion doing this work alongside people who also find so much energy and exhaustion in this work. And I think the, maybe that's, and this is kind of a forming thought as, as we're chatting, but like maybe that's one of the areas in which we really need to look at an acknowledged cause as folx working truly towards justice and liberation and care for humanity and people using fatigue as a weapon is something that we would not like center, right?
Joshua Croke (41:50):
And we shouldn't either. Right? Cause it is coming at the expense of other individuals. Right? And this is where, you know, you talk about justice as like a dirty word, like is it too political to use in certain language and things that I faced that in some of the corporate work that I do, it's like, we want to say diversity, equity and inclusion. And I'm like, well, why can't we add justice and liberation to that as well? And they're like, that's too far, that's too far. And I'm like, let's look at the definitions of these words, right? Like we might disagree on how we achieve them, but those aspirational words should be what everyone is looking for. And I don't think, and it again is that tool of, you know, the supremacist agenda to disallow for us to even feel that we can have these aspirational goals because, and this ties back to our conversation around language and like, this is where all these things weave together and become so interconnected. It's like language does matter. And if I can't confidently and proudly say that I work to realize, adjust, and liberate society at a business table at a business meeting, then there's a long road ahead.
Thu Nguyen (43:09):
Yeah. I remember before I understood more healing justice work because I think many of us who do this work do it because it one either directly impacts us or because we feel so deeply about justice and liberation. Right. And this was once again, before I even understood the notion of healing and I was going through years and years of feeling like, you know, we do this work and we come as our, you know, fighting and wanting to do this work against our, you know, working to end our own oppression. Right. And so we're almost like stepping into the landmines, you know, like we're interacting with our oppressors all the time when we advocate, you know, doing this and we're doing that. And we're all, it just feels like a landmine fill of traumas and triggers. And that's what it felt like.
Thu Nguyen (44:03):
And even when we were working, you know, side by side with people from the community, we're still like interacting with our traumas. And once again, oppressive things, right? Because like, I might be doing some organizing with someone who doesn't understand nonbinary-ness, and they might be sexist, you know? And so, but because I care I'm educating them and sometimes it's triggering when, you know, and so once again, I had this framework of like, wow, doing this work feels like I'm walking in landlines and that this world is a war. And, you know, that's why, what you mentioned about like joy is so important because once I shifted my understanding of doing this work to really find the joy in each other and you know, really doing that self care. And once I can like healing work and realizing that like this work is us reconciling, you know, our hearts together, like we are interconnected and there is no other way of us healing because even if I found my liberation in certain sets and I like try to catch them as the beauties of the world all the time. But if I, you know, after that sunset leaves, I'm back into this world, right. That oppresses all of us. And so, you know, to really making sure that we do this work with love and that we don't just go into escapism or we don't just go to the far end of feeling that this is a battlefield everywhere. Like I think we have to like find that balance within us and with our community.
Joshua Croke (45:37):
And so for listeners, if you're sitting at tables where you hold power and decision-making authority, and, I'll add the asterisk and maybe we'll come back to this, how that everybody has power, right. I think another tool of the white supremacy is diminishing or eliminating the belief that one holds power, regardless of status or position or identity, et cetera. But if you sit at tables where decisions are made, that impact others, that impact community look into healing justice work, and like ask yourselves if you're sitting and, you know, I'm still reflecting on Pride Month and you know, those conversations. And so it's like if you're sitting talking about, oh, we want to do a LGBTQ event because we haven't historically been, you know, done a lot of that or have been supportive, take caution in, or ask yourself what addressing of harms and what healing work have we done within our community before
Joshua Croke (46:41):
we're just like, Hey, like you grab some of the other folx at the workplace. We want to throw a, you know, an ice cream social, you know, you know, those types of like the intention might be there. The impact you have might really be different. Really, really different from that. So like, you know, and when I do my consulting work, I'm always coming to the table and saying, what is the current state of relationship with the community, right. What level of trust exists here? What level of trust needs to be built or repaired? And I think oftentimes, and I came to this realization in some work that I'm doing surrounding youth justice in Worcester in some community based conversations. And again, I am more stewarding this concept and is not one that I came up with myself.
Joshua Croke (47:34):
It came out of the conversations that we were having with the community. But, you know, I kept using the term, what do we need to repair relationship between, you know, this body and the community. And one of the community members was like, we're not repairing anything it didn't exist to begin with. And that really hit me in a way. I was like, wow. Yeah, totally there. Isn't any established trust and there's a history of a lack of trust. And so we are starting at ground zero of relationship building, and that is so critical. And that is such a crucial action. When talking about community growth and healing and prosperity, and really being able to kind of center community voices as the decision-making table, as opposed to folx with power who are at the right table, coming into community and saying, what do you need?
Joshua Croke (48:33):
We'll listen to you for, you know, two minutes at a city council meeting, and then we're going to go and make the decision. So how do we make that change? And that's something that I think, you know, and if you're to be elected to city council, one of the things that I encourage and push our city counselors to think about is how do we change our process of engagement with people in the community? Right? Public participation has failed. We have failed at public participation as like capital C city getting to speak for two minutes at a group of people is not only intimidating and very hard for people that are like have social anxieties and things like that, or have accessibility challenges of like, I can't make it to city hall at 7:00 PM on a Tuesday to talk about how this thing is actually really important and detrimental to my own life or wellbeing, but it's really important, but I just don't have the capacity time or privilege to be able to be in that space. And then you, even, if you get to that podium, you got two minutes to say something that no one's going to respond to. You get a thank you, sit down and then you move on. Right? So I'm thinking about like, how do we transform public participation, the work that we need to do in the community to build back relationship or build foundational relationship with people. And so in our last few minutes here, what is your tangible vision for the future of Worcester?
Thu Nguyen (50:04):
Wow, absolutely. To everything you said. I think honest and transparent government is one of my platforms. And I agree with you that oftentimes the method that we have right now is impossible. And as I mentioned that I, as a Worcester public school alumni, was not taught to vote, you know, most of my class wasn't. And so how we one shift that, right? Like the basic foundation of our education has to include the how to participate. Right. And now we are to shift the desire to participate, right? Because we need young folx to feel like they actually matter. And as you mentioned, this twominute format tells people, you don't matter, even if you showed up, you don't matter. And also, you know, we need to shift who matters, right? So like, we know that, you know, a lot of voters are from, you know, the West Side and are, you know, wealthier white folx.
Thu Nguyen (51:07):
Right. And so that is true. That is true. And we want voters. Right. And so how do we allow and facilitate a system that is more equitable that really fosters more voting, right. And how do people feel empowered to actually engage in the system? Right now, we're, as you say, we're failing, we're failing just from like the basic foundations of teaching Worcester people to vote. And it all ties into systemic racism who we want to show up, who has access. I mean, who is able to, as you mentioned, like some people, like they can't take the days to vote off or the Tuesday off. And also I've seen when we've had city council meetings and it had a set agenda. And then that day, right before the city council meeting, they changed the agenda. And could you imagine being a mother who like switched your schedule to show up to talk about this, and then all of a sudden it was switched and now you've missed your work shift and you have to try again next week, these things are really failing our people.
Thu Nguyen (52:14):
And alsoI don't know, but I've recently found out that like, or not recently, but you know, in the last year, as I have talked to more people about city council meetings, they actually don't know what's going on. Like they can't follow the agenda. They can't as like the public piece of it is actually the most accessible that they're able to understand. They're like, oh, okay. I can understand this person. I can understand this person. And then as soon as that ends and the actual city council meeting roles, people are like, whoa, what just happened? How did that decision get made? And so once again, we need to make these things in a very translatable way to normal folx. And I think that means that we actually have to understand the frameworks in which we're doing this. Maybe that needs to change.
Thu Nguyen (53:05):
You know, like, do we really keep using archaic systems or do we shift it to make it more accessible? And so, yeah, these are the things I'm thinking about in terms of city council and making sure that's more honest and transparent. I also think that we have to really shift these votes. You know, we need voter education. My campaign is mainly about that. It's about, you know, if we could see in Georgia that they flipped blue, you know, we know the power of other communities that haven't been voting for systemic reasons, and that we need that to change immediately. And especially, I don't want us to come out of COVID and still be left behind, you know, I want all of us to be at the decision-making tables to co-create right? Because West Side voters are still part of Worcester, you know, it's not to be like, you don't matter. It's just about like, let's co-create something that is reflective of all of us.
Joshua Croke (54:03):
Absolutely. And I think, and again, I've been advocating for technology access for years and years, but the pandemic really forced people to start paying attention to that. And I hope city council meetings stay as a live stream, you know, at least as a component of that, being an accessible mechanism. I do a lot of work. A lot of people in the community do a lot of work, sometimes 7:00 PM on a Tuesday, or, you know, whenever city council's meeting, that's when I'm making dinner. And like, if I can actually do that and participate in our government, like to a level in which I'm able to give my capacity that week, that is more accessible. But to thank you so much for coming on the show and I hope to have more conversations with you in the future, either pre or post the election. And yeah. Thank you so much for talking to us on Public Hearing.
Thu Nguyen (55:02):
Thank you so much for having me. This was an amazing conversation. Thank you
Joshua Croke (55:08):
Thank you for listening to Public Hearing, our podcast and radio show that airs on WICN 90.5 FM Worcester's only NPR affiliate station and wherever you get your podcasts, thank you to Thu Nguyen for joining us today. I'm Joshua Croke, and this has been the Public Hearing podcast, which is created and produced by Action! by Design we're a community centered design studio taking the imagination age by swarm. We provide inclusive facilitation and community engagement and social change innovation services and equity centered design, branding, and storytelling, which you can learn more about at actionbydesign.co. Our audio producer is Giuliano D'Orazio. Thank you to Eric Gratton, Molly Gammon and Shaun Chung, who also support the production of Public Hearing. And as always, thanks for listening.
