A Sweet Approach to Food Security with Justin Amevor

What do pancakes have in common with pushing for food equity? Doughboyz and Justin Amevor, that’s what! This week, Josh talks with Justin about an idea inspired by a dorm room joke that set him on a path to support folx in Worcester achieve food security. 

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Transcript for this episode

Joshua Croke (00:00):
Hello Worcester and the world. I am your host, Joshua Croke, and this is the Public Hearing podcast, our podcast and radio show about designing equitable and just futures. Today, we're talking with Justin Amevor, a software engineer, WPI grad student, and co-founder of Doughboyz. And I'm so excited to chat with you today, Justin. This is the Public Hearing podcast and radio show. Public Hearing is available wherever you listen to podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM on Wednesdays at 6:00 PM. Worcester’s only NPR affiliate station. Justin, I always like to let guests introduce themselves and since we're much more complex as beings than what one can simply read on LinkedIn. So I invite you to share any parts of your social location, background, and affiliations that you'd like to bring into this space today. And again, thank you so much for coming on Public Hearing today.
Justin Amevor (00:55):
Awesome. Thanks Josh. So that's a really great intro, you pretty much covered most everything I do already, but yeah, this says to expand on what you mentioned, my name's Justin, my pronouns are He/Him/His and as I mentioned, my day job is I'm a software engineer. I went to Worcester Polytechnic Institute to study computer science and very passionate about that. But, you know, in my free time I also do a plethora of other things. I’m starting my business Doughboyz, which is a social justice and sustainability corporation focused on addressing food insecurity and you know. Just a little bit more about me, I'm African-American more specifically Ghanian American, born to two amazing Ghanaian immigrant parents who, you know, traveled and came to America just to support me and my siblings. I am also a black male, you know, yeah, so that's a bit about me.
Joshua Croke (01:50):
Great. Well, thank you so much, Justin. And I think the work that you're doing surrounding food insecurity and how you're approaching it is really interesting, which I'm excited to share with folx today. And before we get into kind of the details of what Doughboyz is and what you're focusing in on as a technologist, as well as, you know, a member of the community who's identified a need, what are some of the things that really kind of inspired you to do the work that you're doing and really center kind of you know, equity and access specifically surrounding food insecurity?
Justin Amevor (02:27):
For sure. Great. You know, I love that. Kind of, as you mentioned, we're all like complex beings and you know, the idea that I have currently for Doughboyz was certainly not something that, you know, I came up with overnight or was fluid from the beginning. And so I kind of want to answer with just a bit of a story of how I, you know, came up with the idea. And so for one, I always just loved breakfast. A big breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And I always took that to heart. You know, all through middle school, high school, I would eat breakfast every day because I'm the type of person that doesn't function if I don't have breakfast, you know, you're not going to get much done.

Joshua Croke (3:05)
Same here, same here, I am a big breakfast person
Justin Amevor (3:09)
So, you know, exactly, you know, like you're not getting much out of me if I don't have my like, my cup of joe in the morning or whatever. But yeah, so I went into college with that mentality, but the issue was, so you, you know WPI, when I got there, I didn't have time for breakfast anymore because I'm doing schoolwork 24/7, right.
Joshua Croke (03:29):
Yeah you’re like running, running, running and go and go and go. And for folx who may be listening, who don't know, I'm also a WPI grad, so we got the school connection there, for sure.
Justin Amevor (03:39):
Yep and yeah, so for anyone that doesn't know WPI is an engineering school in Worcester Massachusetts, and it's a great school, but very rigorous as well. So, you know, you don't have the time to be doing everything you'd like to do or usually do, but you know, that didn't really stop me too much because I had a mini fridge full of these microwaveable pancakes as a freshmen. And, you know, my two freshmen roommates were just like, “hey, you got all these pancakes, you might as well just like start selling them or cooking them or something.” And honestly, that was like kind of it after that basically Doughboyz was born. One of my roommates' girlfriends at the time, like drew the logo like on the spot, like this was literally just like chilling our dorm. And honestly, we started rolling from there. For the rest of that semester, I had literally like started launching and just like started catering.
Justin Amevor (04:32):
I went to like, I would deliver to the dorms. I would go across campus. We have this campus shuttle called SNAP that would go like within a mile of campus. So my model was, if SNAP goes there, I’m going there. You know, breakfast for anybody. But, so, yeah, that's a bit of how like Doughboyz started. But then so as I mentioned, I was doing a lot of it in like my first semester. And then as a freshman, it's kind of a lot, you know, being an engineering student and also trying to operate your own business essentially. So, I didn't do it for too much longer, like I'm actually making and delivering food, past that semester. But the idea never like left my head. And also it was really cool that, you know, looking back on it like my sophomore and junior year, it was kind of like something, I kept my head and maybe work on it in like the back burners, but, you know, people all the time honestly, would come up to me and be like, “Hey, where's Doughboyz? Like, what happened? Like where are these pancakes at?” And, you know, I was just like, “man, I'm just trying to get this degree. Like, y'all, y'all gotta chill.”
Joshua Croke (05:33):
The grind oh yeah, exactly. Well, and you know, the idea kind of coming out of this identified like, oh, this could actually work. Like people want to eat breakfast. Like people are on the go. Like, I know that I love eating pancakes and making pancakes, but it takes time. Right. So like when you're in the morning and like going it's, you know, sometimes, oh, I just don't have time for that. And I'm just going to run. So like that as a service is both a great idea, but also when you apply like an equity and justice framework to it, you start really looking at and seeing the reality of need. And I think what a lot of listeners might not know is like, there are a significant number of college students who are food insecure. And so I know that that's a focus of your work now that you're, you know, looking at, building out the company and continuing the development of this concept.
Joshua Croke (06:37):
And it really, your vantage point and, you know, the experience or the frame of mind that you're bringing to, this is what I think makes it really unique, right? Like you could have just said, oh, I'm going to start a pancake delivery service to college students that, you know, could afford it, I’ll up prices I'll do, you know, fancy pancakes or whatever, you know, whatever it could look like. And the way that you build out the company could have looked very different if you didn't address and identify like, no, there's a need here around food security that we have an opportunity to address.
Justin Amevor (07:16):
No. Yeah. I mean, you, you hit it all on the money. Like those are all great, great points. So as like you mentioned everything like, in college honestly, like I didn't even really think about this being like a legit business really either and really like going forward, but having all those people get like affirmation, like definitely like subconsciously built me up. And then like last year, I would say like you know, somewhat ironically, like probably about a week before George Floyd was murdered, the idea to get a food truck came, just came to me kind of, and with that idea, the whole social justice aspect started to really start to hit me because, you know, because before it was just like a delivery service or just like a food service and it could have been like for profit could have been a business, you know, there's a million ways that anyone can start any venture, but, you know, with the idea of a food truck, I was thinking, well, this is a way to make food accessible. This is a way to, you know, provide equity to places that don't have food justice. So kind of with all of that. And especially after, you know, after that event, you know, the events in the spring, like it was like, oh man, like this, this is exactly what we need or it's been needed. So, you know, after that it became a lot more clear and, you know, a year later I'm still moving strong. So hopefully we can, you know, get rolling soon.
Joshua Croke (08:39):
And I think it's a testament to how much, or how important it is for companies to think about how they center equity and justice into their work. And, you know, I feel like there are folx out there that might be like, oh, you know, I'm just a restaurant. I can't, you know, there's only so much that I can do, but you're, you know, proving an example of like, you can kind of focus and center this in whatever type of business or service folx, you know, in community are providing. So, you know, in my work I'm always encouraging organizations, companies, universities, institutions, to think about how do we really center equity and justice, right? The whole component of or the whole focus of Public Hearing as a podcast and show is to think about designing equitable and just futures and like, how do we actually go about doing that?
Joshua Croke (09:36):
And like, who needs to be involved? The answer is everybody. But how do we really engage people at all these varying levels and like understand the challenges and the intersections of things like accessing food, right? And like, I formerly created and hosted a show called the Experience This podcast. And we talked about the intersection of design technology and society. And I was in Atlanta, Georgia for a Smart Cities expo a couple of years ago and met a woman who started a company surrounding food security. But the company was using technology to identify food surplus at things like airports and big convention centers that, you know, hosted an event for 500, but 400 came. So there was a hundred leftover meals. And unfortunately the reality is that usually those would just be thrown out. It's not bad food, it's not food waste, it's surplus food that doesn't have a process to be introduced to other folx within the community.
Joshua Croke (10:47):
So she, Jasmine Crowe is her name. The company is called Goodr Co. and she looked at how technology could be utilized to build, you know, a process for redistributing food surplus in community, you know, and that came out of an identified need. So like as a technologist too, how do you think about that in the work that you're doing with Doughboyz and addressing food insecurity? Cause I know that Doughboyz you're working on the food truck component of this, which I want listeners to hear more about, but if you look at the Doughboyz website, there's a broader kind of concept for what your hopes and aspirations are as a company.
Justin Amevor (11:39):
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, you're saying like companies can incorporate social justice and equity in everything they do. And just very briefly, I'll bring up our plan of like launching as a benefit corporation, which is a relatively new form of like business entities, similar to like LLCs or like corporations. And, you know, a benefit corporation is in this simply in the simplest form, a company that just operates on a mission and, you know, you're focused on that mission and not on a fiduciary base where you're more driven towards profits and, you know, that's a specific type of business entity, but again, it's new. Like anyone can go ahead and, you know, make an equitable approach to their endeavors. But yeah, so, you know, being a technologist and like hearing things like that, like yes, I feel like in any skill you learn, in any degree you get, you can bring it back to, you know, your overarching goals.
Justin Amevor (12:37):
And at the end of the day, it's just like, what do you want to accomplish in like your life span or what, you know, what are your overarching goals? And, you know, I think in that example of like, you know, companies that are trying to handle the food waste problem is amazing because that's a huge, huge problem. I think the last time I looked at it is that on a daily basis, the United States throws away the amount of food that can fill up the size of Pennsylvania. You know, it's ridiculous. And in my work, like I haven't even figured it out exactly like how to tackle the whole food waste problem because it's a whole problem in itself. And so we need people coming up with these solutions and we need people focused on this space because it's not something I can solve for myself.
Justin Amevor (13:25):
It's not something that, you know, a hundred of us can solve by ourselves. It's something that all of us solve together and that takes technologists. It takes, you know, theorists, it takes you know, people of all different backgrounds and ethnicities and especially I think you know, being a technologist, there's a lot of ways that I hope to, and plan on, you know, bringing my experience into it. And, you know, we can definitely talking about it more, just like, you know, finding real ways to track and, you know, make susceptible plans to work on food insecurity, to work on, you know, redistributing food waste or food surplus, like the technology, as we know, like it's been the boom, you know, past the 2000’s and we're still relatively early and exploring all the technology can do for us, especially on a social level, like with as we see now, we have apple watches, we have tech like wearable technology. So seeing how technology can, you know, enable us to do things better to kind of like add onto our lives and, you know, exploring how that goes, because I still think we're still relatively early and exploring all of that.
Joshua Croke (14:35):
Definitely. And so my background is in user experience design and building the kind of front end interactions for mobile apps, software, and connected devices. And now I'm running Action! by Design, which is much more focused on thinking about innovation in an inclusive and equitable context, helping to facilitate, you know, dialogue among folx who are impacted negatively by systems and folx who are systems involved to try and, you know, address and design solutions to solve some of our greatest challenges that we face in society today. But so much of my work that I do now is rooted in my UX background because I am a like a huge advocate for design thinking, education, as well as, project based learning, which is where I will give WPI a big shout out is the project-based learning approach that WPI takes with like the IQP and the MQP and really kind of bringing that like real world application of here's a challenge in society that needs to be solved, build a project around it, learn about what you need to learn.
Joshua Croke (15:58):
And like, that's what I think is one of the most critical components about project based learning is, it helps us support critical thinking skills, which if you can think critically about any issue, like you can identify what the problems are that you need to solve. You can put together a project plan for like how to address those issues. And so did you leverage or connect with any of like the on-campus like support services or like entrepreneur or entrepreneurial efforts while you were at WPI that kind of helped you further this concept?
Justin Amevor (16:34):
So, yeah, kind of, so I definitely, as I had mentioned, like when I was in college in my undergrad, like, it was kind of like on the back burner, like I definitely, you know, in a way I was like oh, man it’s this pancake guy selling pancakes. Like and I did like enter one or two like competitions or like entrepreneurship like pitch events, but I certainly did not utilize the resources for entrepreneurs you know, for entrepreneurship or just project based learning that I could have. And I want to highlight that a bit because Doughboyz, honestly I've used it in like official like class projects. Like it had been something I've worked on in my free time. And it helped me work, as being a computer scientist, that helped me work on my like programming skills.
Justin Amevor (17:23):
Like in my free time I'd work on making an application. I made a web application and I now have a website and, you know, those were things that I didn't take advantage of. And I think having personal projects like that, you know this is can apply to anyone, just having some sort of personal project. This is definitely something that's you know, preached on to computer science majors, but you know, could apply to anyone, certainly helps. And especially, I want to highlight that for underrepresented communities because it's not, you know, the information we learn is not one easy to grasp, but it's also not accessible to as many people. So you're teaching like high concept engineering or like you know, these like difficult projects, but, you know, finding something that you resonate with and having, you know, a passion to work on it yourself can help bring people in that, you know, are sometimes left away from that table.
Justin Amevor (18:17):
So I wish I had done that more, but certainly I'll also say like certainly now I have definitely jumped in way more into the resources and working you know, very closely now with the Innovation Entrepreneurship Office at WPI you know, with the Director of Entrepreneurship there, Curtis Abel and his whole team. So now, you know, exploring those resources now and also the resources throughout the Worcester area. I was E For All alumni, Entrepreneurship For All, but, you know, there's certainly a bunch of researchers out there. One of the issues is that, you know, they're not publicized as much, and especially to everyone, but again, like making the efforts and the work that, you know, work that you do. And people in this space that are making advertising and communicating this information is also extremely important as we all know. But again, like, you know, finding those resources and really taking advantage of them and understanding how you can take advantage of them and, you know, your own personal life is certainly half the battle.
Joshua Croke (19:23):
Yeah and building that network of people to connect with. And, you know, you mentioned something that I want to highlight that is so relevant to so many of the conversations that I have of like the beauty of diversity of identity, background, and experience to fuel like innovation, right? Like you talk about the like diversity of experiences, really helping to identify like, oh, have we looked at the project in this way? Or have we thought about doing it in this way? Or based on my experience, we should think about considering this. Right. And, you know, I talk a lot about how diversity fuels innovation because there's the unfortunate reality that a lot of organizations and businesses need to hear how diversity equity and inclusion work benefit the bottom line of the company. Right? So like there's that all say kind of problematic component of it, because I think that the pursuit of creating inclusive and welcoming space for everybody is very much enough of an argument to do it.
Joshua Croke (20:34):
But there's also benefit to like innovate true innovation, like true innovation comes out of like diversity of perspective, right? Like if we at nature, like if we look at biology, like nature survives and innovates, because of diversity and there's, you know, been historically, unincluded folx you know, black and brown folx, queer folx, folx of varying ability, like neurodiverse people, who are excluded historically from really being involved in projects. Like when you're talking about like high concept engineering and like technology and thinking about like creating more access for folx who have been historically excluded from these opportunities. I think that I just wanted to, like for listeners, highlight that you kind of mentioned it quickly as you were talking through some of your journey in this. But I wanted to just highlight that as a consideration for listeners around the critical nature of if we are going to change and evolve as a community, like as society, we need to be truly embracing and bringing everyone in our communities into conversations around how to address things like food insecurity.
Justin Amevor (22:05):
Yeah. And you're saying it very nicely, like there's really no arguments, you know, against diversity and equity that I, and that many people that I can see you know, I've been able to work as a software engineer, like a full-time software engineer for about a year now. And like seeing you know, just seeing the demographic of, you know, companies like this, like there certainly needs to be more diversity and equity because as we're saying, like innovation is made better, once you bring in more diverse groups you just have a more holistic view. Like if, you know, people even just think geographically, like if you have people in different places coming together, they can bring a shared experience to make better ideas.
Joshua Croke (22:56):
Right. No, totally. Well, and, you know, I feel like sometimes I sit at tables where I'm asking the obvious question in the room of like, we're talking about, say youth justice, right. We're having this conversation. And all these people are weighing in on like, well, we should do this, or we should do this, or we should do this. And I'm like, can I just ask a dumb question? Like, why aren't there any youth at this table? Like if we're talking about things that are impacting them, they're the experts of their own experiences. So how do we bring them into the conversation? And, you know, that's the work that I do is like, as I've been on my own journey of learning, I used to be like, oh, I have a lot of great ideas and I can build a lot of projects and I can really help, you know, support people and had this like realization moment where it's like, I have a unique set of experiences that does not give me the authority or ability to truly like address all of the various challenges that people are facing in society.
Joshua Croke (23:59):
Like there are a lot of things surrounding, like, you know, I do a lot of work in youth justice and addressing the harms of the school to prison pipeline and, you know, the experiences of young people in juvenile detention. And I don't have that lived experience. So I cannot ever speak as an authority on that. But as a facilitator, I can bring voices to the table and help to facilitate a dialogue where folx can feel comfortable expressing and talking about their own lived experiences and how that could help to influence or drive the development of initiatives that address those challenges. And I think that's what we need, like, way more of in the world is like hearing people who are most impacted by, you know, challenges like folx who have experienced food insecurity and bringing them into the conversation about like, what are the things that you need? And like, how do we give you more? Like, how can we support you in making decisions that support your own health, wellbeing and success?
Justin Amevor (25:08):
Yeah. I mean, you're certainly absolutely right. That there needs to be more of these conversations, but I don't know if I'm looking at too simplistically, but to me it also seems like it's kind of also common sense. Like, it doesn't, for me, it doesn't take like someone telling me that, oh, we should have youth at the table if we're talking about youth conversations or like, we need to not have just one type of demographic talking about this one issue. And you know, it's certainly, you know, this is certainly stuff that I believe me, you, and like probably, you know, a lot of these schools understand, but it's, you know, it's difficult when you see that, you know, those barriers or people like put those barriers up in understanding you know. It's also discouraging, and hearing especially people in positions of power that, you know, may have been there systemically, may not have been, but, you know, when they don't hear the arguments or are just open-minded, you know, just simply just open-minded to hearing about different perspectives or learning about different ways to do things because this world isn't perfect.
Justin Amevor (26:10):
And there's so many things that need to be changed. And, you know I'm like trying not to get into specifics, but like, you know, hearing people say like, “oh, well, there's no problem in this.” “Or like, this is fine.” “Or like this society, we don't do things badly here.”
Joshua Croke (26:28):
Free to be as specific as possible, call it out and call it like it is.
Justin Amevor (26:33):
No. Yeah. It was just like in our city you know, a few weeks back hearing the, I believe like the police Sergeant of the union saying that there is no racism in like the Worcester police department. Like, of course, you know, you're not just going to say, “oh, like, this organization is racist, like this is bad. Like they don't like my people.” But, you know, in general, just to say that like, “oh, like we can't possibly exhibit this behavior,” or like, “we're not racist.” Like, you know, it’s a load of malarkey. You have to be open-minded and understanding about like, okay, well, why has someone interpreted it this way? Like you know, why is this person viewing me this way? Or like, you know, where are all these opinions coming from? You have to be open to understanding different perspectives
Joshua Croke (27:26):
And to invalidate any even single individual experience that someone has by saying that something so like blanket statement, “like racism doesn't exist in this system,” right? It invalidates the experience of everyone who has experienced racism within that system. And is just as a statement behind a podium that says “your experience doesn't matter and I don't believe you.” Which is such a core, it's one of the root causes of harm in so many of our systems is literally the ability for someone to make a statement like that, and still carry on, right. And not actually have to address the reality of the situation because of power influence, authority and the power influence and authority that surrounds and protects those individuals. Right. And so like that is, you know, to your point, like it is a load of malarkey, and we need to, like, as a community, figure out how do we address and hold our power structures accountable so that people can't say those types of things and be unchecked and left, not held accountable to every instance of racism or sexism, or ableism, or any of the isms that people experience can't be invalidated at the, you know, behind a microphone.
Justin Amevor (28:56):
Yeah and like, I definitely like how, you know, it hit me when you said like individual experiences, because, you know, one person saying it, is enough. And, you know, everything needs to be accounted for. Again, you know, back to my point of just being open-minded, is just needed. I don't think as a country, we do a good enough job of just being global citizens. I think we need to understand more of just like it doesn't even just revolve around me or my country or my community or my block. We're all in this unit together. If people don't notice it's like blistering hot outside. We need to, you know, get to work on climate change, we need to start making equitable changes. And, you know, that's, I mean, again, specifics that like corporation needs to change.
Justin Amevor (29:46):
People need to change, but we all need to realize that it all comes in together. And to kind of more your latter point something, you know, it can get discouraging just looking at, you know, things like that. And like for me, I kind of flipped it in that that I realized like, yes, like there's these systems in place already, but that's kind of what drove me towards entrepreneurship because I'm like, okay, well, like if I don't like a system, then I have the ability to put my best effort into, you know, making the change that I would like to see in the world. And if I don't think how food systems are doing great right now, like I have the ability to put my best foot forward and say like, “Hey, like, why don't we try this?” Like, “why don't we try to make things more equitable in this way?” And I'm saying, talking about me, but this is everyone. Like, if you have the power and you think like, Hey, I don't like this, you know simply from your elementary school teachings, just you don't like something, you know, be the change in the world you want to see is what I'd say.
Joshua Croke (30:51):
And to that point, and you mentioned power, and I feel like one of the most successful tools of like a supremacist agenda is to make people feel powerless. When in reality, everyone has innate power that they can tap into. Right. And this is why I do a lot of collective action work, you know, bringing together a hundred voices is louder than one, but one is still powerful because it's part of the 100, right? Like that concept of like, oh, wow. If every single person in this room of a hundred people said, my voice didn't matter and stayed home, we'd have zero people, but every individual said, my voice matters. So we're here and there's a hundred of us. Right. And so like, how do we really encourage folx to see and experience like the reality of that? And I'm interested in like, exploring like how that ties to like food systems.
Joshua Croke (31:50):
I know one of the big conversations in Worcester lately has been around fair, free WRTA for free public transit for folx in the city, which is a huge access issue. Right. Especially, you know, and this is where intersections of systems is really the, you know, that's what I've tapped into as my passion is like, not necessarily just fixing the transportation system, but looking at how the transportation system links to food security, which links to public health, which links to the way that we discipline kids in school. Right. Like all of these things, I can draw a line between all of those, all of those things. And so fair, free WRTA I think like there's a big conversation about right to housing, right to be able to transit one's city and like right to food access. Right. So how are you talking about food access, food security in the context of your work?
Justin Amevor (32:54):
Yeah and again, I'll just start real quick with like repeating my mission of, you know, Doughboyz as a social justice and sustainability corporation focused on eliminating food insecurity in underrepresented communities. And, you know, that's a specific spot, but as you mentioned, like there's lines to be drawn at, you know, with every single part in that system. And, you know, in our city, there's a lot of groups already, and that's another good point that there's a lot of groups already looking at this issue because it's a multifaceted issue and there's a lot of different routes or opportunities to address it. But in the spin that I look at it is that you know, just looking back at our country and society, you know, we started as a more agricultural people who were you know, living off the land farming, you know, taking care of your own.
Justin Amevor (33:48):
And then we've now transitioned to, you know, it's more profitize, it's more of you know, commercial based. But the issue that I've seen is that, you know, it's apparent that because of that, it's created this, you know, astronomical gap between, you know, different communities. And at this point, people don't have the food that they, you know, keyword, need to survive or to live a decent lifestyle. So in my work like I ideally, I would hope again, to eliminate food insecurity by building sustainable systems and, you know, ways that we plan on doing it is you know, a couple of things, for one we're positioning ourselves as a benefit corporation. And interesting enough, like the way I hope to do it is that operating again, like for-profit and non-profit.
Justin Amevor (34:41):
And so when we start, hopefully like on launching specifically on weekends where Saturdays, we'll be, you know, selling to the customers and, you know, supporting our business, you know, being self-sustaining and, you know, I think that's a huge part of it because, you know, there's, you can't do much if you don't have a plan to be self-sufficient, but then, you know, going right back the next day on Sundays and then giving out food for free basically, and, you know, feeding people who are food insecure, but building up that sustainable system you know, building up a system that isn't focused on profits, because I don't need profits. I have a roof over my head. Like I don't need to be like a billionaire or whatever. I just want to, you know, live a lifestyle that I can support myself and the people I care about, but then, you know, use my project to achieve the mission I'm working towards and building again, that sustainable system that, you know, eventually, like over time, that system will, you know, track people who are food insecure.
Justin Amevor (35:44):
So if every Sunday I see that the same person, you know, the same people are coming to get free food because they don't have the food access. And it's like, Hey, you know, city, like why is this person, you know, coming every week to say they don't have food insecurity, can, you know, can something be done about this? You know, at a certain point, you know, it's always on a person to, you know, try their best, but it's also on this, you know, their surroundings or the city or the state to be like, Hey, like we, you know, we're fostering this environment where a person isn't you know, can't support themselves. So, you know, it takes help to build that up. And then like, so eventually hopefully, you know, these check-ins are, I'll call them community breakfast, will be sort of a check-in that, you know, it will literally be checking in on people's levels of food security.
Justin Amevor (36:34):
And over time, it will become a sustainable system that we can literally look at the level of food security in a city and say, “oh, well, they're good, you know, they’re food secure here. Let's move on to the next place. Let's solve the problem.” Because, you know, theoretically, like hunger is a solvable problem. I think there's even a number of like, if we have this much money, you know, we could solve the problem. So, hopefully this isn't something I will do forever. I would like to do other things. I love Doughboyz, but like, if I can solve this problem, great, let's move on to the next one. Cause there's a lot of stuff to do.
Joshua Croke (37:12):
And I love what you just said there of like, I'd love to do other things because I feel like, you know, and I'm going to use the term that's often thrown out that a lot of people have, like social justice warrior. Like they're like, “oh, you people just do this cause they like to, you know, be agitators” or, you know, whatever the reasoning is. And I so often say to people I'm like, there are so many other things that I would love to do with my time and with my ability and you know, my skill sets, but there are fundamental challenges in society that are so critical to solve that I probably won't ever be able to do those things because we need to do this work first. And you know, it's not positioning me on like this oh, I'm in this long line of like service to the world.
Joshua Croke (38:11):
It's like we have solvable issues. Like you're talking about hunger. Hunger is like... the food exists. We know the food exists. Like it's not even a food shortage, it's a process engineering problem. And it is a selfishness and corporate greed problem. It is not the amount of food problem. Right. And so like finding ways to like solve and address the issue of food access is something that folx can come together as engineers, as community engagement advocates and people who work in various systems or in various fields can, you know, coming together to say like, all right, let's map the issue of food access and security. And I believe you're working on a project surrounding that, right?
Justin Amevor (39:08):
Yes, exactly. So my master's project would kind of be, I kind of alluded to earlier, it would be to track to literally track food insecurity in cities or just anywhere basically. And so that would kind of take, you would have to look at like the inputs into the city of just like, okay, well what's the level of like what's the poverty rates? What, what are the groceries? Like, what's the transportation system look like? Because that is, you know, that is what makes food secure or insecure. And so once you have like an idea of that, then you look at the people and say like, okay, well, are they food insecure? Like what are, you know, what's their surrounding environments? You know, what contributes to their level of food security?
Justin Amevor (39:58):
Because you know, that kind of is like a broad term, but it's something that we can make more specific. And it's certainly something that needs to be expanded on more and hopefully in my project that's exactly what I'm going to do. And, you know, starting in our town of Worcester and like saying like, oh, in Main South, like there's like a 30% level because there's no grocery store a mile away. And then the bus only runs like two times to the grocery store. So the level as well, and to fix that, you know, to get the percentage lower, you need more transportation and that's something you can then give to cities and then using machine learning or using, you know, predictive models, you can analyze it.
Justin Amevor (40:40):
You can use that in other cities and literally just drop and place it all across and say like, oh, well this city is food secure too, because you know, somebody took the other seven cities that don't have grocery stores in this area. Like, you need to do that. And just again, like, I think half the battle in anything is knowledge and communication probably even slip and say communication first, because if you just communicate these problems, like if we all knew that, Hey, this area is food insecure because there's not a grocery store here, then let's build the grocery store. But that also starts again with like, just not knowing where you're at and meeting where you're at and then, you know, tracking the level of food security and then building on from there.
Joshua Croke (41:26):
I've been working on a project concept for, if I were to say like how long I've actually been working on it, it's been years and years, but more so specifically, I've been actually dedicating some time back to it and really thinking about how do we create, how do we build more density around the data that we have access to in this city and, you know, in communities generally, and make that data accessible for community at varying levels of understanding of, you know, complex data visualizations and things like that. But also how do we get more authentic, regular, and engaged community feedback on these things as well? Cause you know, I'm thinking about your example and I'm jumping back to my UX and like information architecture days, and I'm like, all right, now, how would we be like presenting this information? And like, what are the...
Justin Amevor (42:21):
That's all on you cause I'm not good at design stuff at all.
Joshua Croke (42:24):
We can chat, we can chat about that. Cause there's a lot of overlap in some of these concepts. Cause I'm thinking about like, you know, here's a map of Worcester. I want to see the food desert layer where like, where are the points in the city that don't have a grocery store or access to food within a mile or two miles, you know, walking distance. Right. And then like over that, let's put in like the, you know, poverty rates and income thresholds within the city over that let's put, you know, and to keep stacking these different, you know, data sets to be able to spot and identify areas that might be the most food insecure. And so that's from like a more kind of systems level, like data set opportunity to identify possible challenges and solutions. And then I would also be thinking of like, how does the community, so do we go into those communities and then survey those communities specifically to get the actual lived experience lived experiences from the members of the community who seem to be, based on looking at this map, the most food insecure going into those communities, finding out like what those experiences look like and the ideas and solutions that they would have for addressing that problem.
Joshua Croke (43:48):
Because some communities would be like, you know, I can imagine people would be like, oh yeah, there's this empty storefront that would make a great grocery store, but nobody will come here because of this, this and that reason. And eight people have tried to do this over the past 20 years and it hasn't worked because nobody's listened to us verse, you know, another community that might simply be a five minute drive across the city that has identified a possible solution. That's totally different, but would actually address the need of that unique space. Yeah.
Justin Amevor (44:19):
And certainly like you know, I've been excited to talk to you about this briefly about this project. And it's certainly something that I would hope we could work together on because it sounds like in the few conversations we’ve had about it, you know, I think we were talking a lot about the same things and like it's addressing the same issues, but you know, I'm certainly excited, you know, for my project. Cause like, you know, I don't have the answer to that question. Like I don't know like the best way to do that, but you know, I'm excited to find out and I think it starts with, you know, engaging with the community and just like reaching out and asking people. But again, I don't know, it's gonna take talking to people, it's going to take figuring out what are the issues.
Justin Amevor (45:01):
Is it, you know, a grocery store or is it transportation? Is it, you know, again like A, B or C,? Like what do people actually need? And that comes again with, I think communication. A thing that's been brought about like in our city is the SNAP program is usually, you know, for people like on the poverty line or whatever it is. And it's you know, for grocery food, but you know, in some states, California I believe, like you can also use like the SNAP program at restaurants. And that's just, you know, that's just something that they do and like that's like specific to like, you know, one or two states and like, why is that like that's certainly something that Massachusetts can use, like you know, has input from the community being brought on to these decisions. Like, is everyone at the table involved in like these discussions? Like, I don't think so. You know, correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, I think these are the conversations and these are the surveys and questions that need to be asked. And that will be asked at this point, cause I'm on it now.
Joshua Croke (46:14):
And I think you're asking absolutely the right questions. And I believe there is a narrative that exists, which is often pushed from certain political vantage points of, I'm just going to say it's a human dignity conversation, right. I think there are folx who say, oh, well, if someone needs SNAP, then I should, as the person who is not involved in this person's lived experience in any way, I feel like I would feel better about a SNAP program if I knew that they couldn't have access to certain things that I have access to because I'm in a more privileged position or I'm in a more like a wealthy position. I think we take away the agency of choice based on the challenges that people are facing, which are very much and more often than not, due to failed systems and structures that are set up to make people fail. And that is something that I'm really passionate about in my work is like, human dignity should not be something that people are budgeting on, you know, a spreadsheet somewhere. That's what I have to say about that.
Justin Amevor (47:35):
Yeah, no. So certainly
Joshua Croke (47:40):
Yeah, no, and, you're totally right. And we actually had a conversation with Grace Sliwoski who works at the Regional Environmental Council, the REC and we're talking about some of the challenges with one of the SNAP programs that allowed for folx to pick up food out like the local farmer's market and use some of their their SNAP points to get fresh produce. One of the challenges is the benefits don't carry over each month. So if you don't use those benefits in the specific month, you lose your ability to, you know, purchase fresh produce and things that are not, within that month, like if you miss the date or the deadline, you lose that money that you would have been able to purchase a pretty sizable amount, of like local and fresh produce.
Joshua Croke (48:33):
And that's, you know, the other component of this is like, when we start literally requiring or like putting limits on how people are able to kind of use points and use that that resource it becomes a question or a conversation around public health because people need access to like a nutritious and healthy food which often is more expensive and harder to access. And so that's how like public health connects with, you know, the food security conversation with connect, which connects with transportation. Cause if you can't get to your local farmer's market for whatever reason, then you might miss out on the opportunity to use your SNAP points for that program to purchase produce, you know, it's this, it's a vicious cycle.
Justin Amevor (49:29):
And again, like you bring up an amazing point of like, you know, there can and should be restrictions on things, but like, again, what is the point of these restrictions? Like, is it because of like a surplus thing or is it someone just decided we need these things. And also just, you know, quickly shout out as you mentioned, like the REC and kind of Grace too, because you know, they have been like the pioneers, I think like in our city on a lot of these issues. And I'm actually like also on the board for REC now. So I know Grace really well and she's like a second mom to me, honestly, so I could go on like a whole tangent, but like, the work in space being done in like those areas to understand like why are these systems in place?
Justin Amevor (50:18):
And again, like, I'll bring it back to like my work. I'm like really, I'm like really excited, you know, if you can't tell like, and anxious about the work I hope to do with Doughboyz, because one, it's like super meaningful, but like, it gives me a chance to be professional and to like put my step forward, like, but yeah, have that meaningful work. And, knowing that like, Hey, like I'm actually, like, there's actually things that are being done to create better food systems, because it doesn't mean I don't, like, my opinion is like, it doesn't need to be for profit at all, really. Like, I think the food aspect should come first. Everyone needs to eat, you know, breakfast, the most important meal of the day.
Justin Amevor (51:04):
Everyone needs breakfast. And if people aren't getting that because they don't have the money, then, that doesn't make sense to me. Like, I would literally, I would want us to like, restart and like make sure that everyone has like food first before we start thinking about anything else. Like it doesn't matter to me. Like, I don't care if like in 10 years from now, we were giving out like food for free at first. And then like, you know, we get like a grant to just sustain the business. Like the goal is to get people fed and then make a business around it kind of after. So if I think of that approach has kind of taken towards things. You know, hopefully you can make equitable changes to support underrepresented communities, cause know that's who I fight and that's where I champion.
Joshua Croke (51:47):
And so for listeners, in our last two minutes here, voting with our dollars and our feet is a very, very powerful way to influence how the world moves forward. Right. So you know, having the choice of where to spend our money is a really powerful tool. So how can people find and support Doughboyz and the work that you're doing? And are there any other things that you want to just share before we wrap up today?
Justin Amevor (52:25):
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. So certainly we're accepting donations trying to start up. So if you check out www.Doughboyz.org you can find the donation link, but also a big thing is that I have a YouTube channel called The Dough Club, basically the companion of Doughboyz and everything that I do. It's kind of more based on my life, but you know, it's another tool to educate people on personal branding skills, STEM, being, you know, science, technology, engineering, math, and personal branding, you know, targeted towards underrepresented communities. Cause you know, just getting that information again, I think communication is very important. So, you know, donations are great, but also subscribing is free. So that's another great thing. And also just mentioned that I'm also the chair for an engineering society called the National Society of Black Engineers, NSBE.
Justin Amevor (53:22):
And a lot of what I do is advocating for STEM and underrepresented communities and, you know, volunteering and community engagement. So I just encourage everyone to, you know, reach out into the community you know, volunteer at the NSBE chapter or volunteer with you know, any group that could need your help because you know, if being certainly like me being an engineer, like going back to like, you know, one of my elementary schools, like there's a lot of experience I can help to educate people that like I didn't get when I was a kid. So again, just like educating and being there for people, certainly what I just encourage everyone to do. So that's about it.
Joshua Croke (54:02):
Well, thank you so much, Justin, and thank you for giving your time and sharing your passions and commitment to the world and the work that you're doing around food security and everything else really value you and you being in this space with me today and look forward to the future and keeping an eye on what you're up to.
Justin Amevor (54:25):
Of course. Thank you. And I hope you can, you know, connect on this you know, food security like map project. I certainly think we have a lot of great ideas to go to. So I'd love to work on that. Absolutely.
Joshua Croke (54:37):
Absolutely. Thank you for listening to Public Hearing, our podcast and radio show that airs Wednesdays at 6:00 PM on WICN 90.5 FM Worcester's only NPR affiliate station. Thank you so much to Justin Amevor for joining us today. My name is Joshua Croke and this has been the Public Hearing podcast. Public Hearing is created and produced by Action! by Design. We're a design studio that facilitates community engagement and social change innovation and provides equity centered design branding and storytelling services. If you have any questions about what that might mean and how it could benefit you or your organization, I would love to chat with you. Email me at Josh@actionbydesign.co. Our audio producer is Giuliano D'Orazio. Thank you to Eric Gratton, Molly Gammon and Shaun Chung, who also support the production of Public Hearing. Also we'd love to welcome our newest intern Anna Freiberg who is supporting the show as well this summer, and as always, thanks for listening.