What are critical community considerations for addressing the urgency of the moment? with Deb Hall
Josh talks with Deb Hall, recently appointed Executive Director of the YWCA of Central Mass, about pride, race, being queer, and intersectionality. We explore the concept of urgency, what is needed in this moment, and how we might look to the future.
Listen to Public Hearing wherever you get your podcasts and on WICN 90.5FM, Worcester’s NPR affiliate station. And, while we celebrate women all year round, our guests for the month of March are all women who live, influence, and/or impact the City of Worcester, MA. Learn more about our show at PublicHearing.co
Transcript for this episode
Joshua Croke (00:00):
Hello Worcester and the world and happy Pride. This is your host, Joshua Croke. And this is the Public Hearing podcast and radio show, our podcast and radio show about cities, communities and designing equitable and just futures. And this month we are centering queer voices in our community, in our conversations. But you know, we are always queer here. Today, we're talking with Deb Hall, a community organizer, human rights advocate, who has most recently been the Director of Domestic Violence Services at the YWCA and had a bid for Worcester city council, but is now going to be stepping into the role of Executive Director of the YWCA of central Massachusetts. And today we are exploring the question, what are critical community considerations for addressing the urgency of the moment? This is the Public Hearing podcast and radio show. Public Hearing is available wherever you listen to podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM on Wednesdays at 6:00 PM. Worcester's only NPR affiliate station. So we always start our show asking guests to share some info about them, any affiliations, experiences you want to bring into this space and any part of your social location, you're comfortable sharing with our listeners. So Deb, welcome, and thank you so much for joining me on Public Hearing.
Deb Hall (01:18):
Thank you so much, Josh, for having me. And I appreciate this forum and the invitation to talk about this very important topic. So I am Debbie Hall and as Josh said it seems like quite a bit, even for me in this last year, just being in different spaces and places where I thought and think I can affect change. Originally I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. So I'm from the Midwest. And I was a child of a mixed race marriage, right? So my mother is from Germany, she's German, German descent. And my dad was from Clarksdale, Mississippi, and he is a black man. And so I was born into this family. I have six brothers, and so I'm the only female in the family. So growing up was pretty normal for me, whatever that means going to school, happy family life and just had a great time.
Deb Hall (02:18):
Family was important, definitely felt loved and cared about. While in undergrad, I came out to my family and was accepted and was loved. And I know that's not the story for everyone, but I will say that I found that support in my family. And so the very many identities I know Josh, you and I have talked about that. I own being a person of color and identify as black and a queer woman, a feminist and definitely an advocate and activist. So that's kinda how I came to be. Y’know, I grew up in a family where we were taught that we were supposed to give back and help people who were less fortunate than us. However, we could do that by amplifying their voices or amplifying our voices in order to help. And so with that early learning and just community, community building, community organizing, and just love set me on a path of just really public service and doing the best I can. So I found myself here, even as you say it, I will be transitioning into the role of Director at YWCA of central Massachusetts. I'm looking forward to that adventure. We have urgent as we talk about urgent needs and an urgent mission to eliminate racism and empower women. And that's radical enough. So we will spend all of our time and energy doing that and extending work we do into the community as we have been doing. So that's just a little bit about me.
Joshua Croke (04:02):
Well, thank you so much. And I always really value our conversations. And I'm so glad you're here in this space with me today. And, you know, it is Pride Month. We're celebrating voices while also addressing, you know, urgent need and the intersections of need and identity in our communities. As many folks get ready and excited to, especially now that vaccinations and we're getting closer to, you know, the herd immunity and folks can go out and that is call for celebration enough, but celebrating identity and celebrating Pride is often you know, a truly joyous event. But also one of the things that I think is so important to talk about is the violence and harm that's continued to be committed against folks in our community. And as we know trans women of color are disproportionately affected by hate crimes and violence.
Joshua Croke (05:01):
And unfortunately every Trans Day of Remembrance every year, we're reciting the names of folks who have been killed in this past year. And so violence in our community is still a very present issue that we need to address. And I think, you know, folks within Worcester and within Massachusetts can sometimes miss believe that we don't have these challenges here. And so how do we really look at approaching, addressing community harm and the intersections of identity that are harmed by the isms that we talk about racism, you know classism, the phobias, homophobia, transphobia, et cetera. How do we really start looking at this as a community need effort?
Deb Hall (05:51):
Absolutely. Good question. Thank you for asking that I you know, situate the things that have been happening specifically in the Worcester community and contextualizing that with what we've been through in the last year, right? So we had the pandemic, we had the continued lynching of black folks of all genders and identities by police and by other people, we saw that, especially coming off of the four years of the Trump Administration, where a lot of us saw rollbacks in terms of any progress that had been made in the LGBTQIA plus community, and communities of color, immigrant communities, et cetera. So what we found and what happened and what was exciting last summer, even here, Worcester was the confrontation of the amplification of these isms that came to a head with the lynching of George Floyd. And that was very visible.
Deb Hall (06:57):
That was a moment that touched a lot of different people. And one of the things I say is that people it's easy to dehumanize other people and to talk about other people when you don't know them, but once you get to know them, that humanists comes through when for some of our white feminist sisters, one of the reasons they said they were up in arms, it was an urgent need at that moment to come out and speak out against the lynching of George Floyd is because he called out for his mother. And at the end of the day, that was something all of us can relate to, regardless of whatever happened in your life, your mother, he called out for his mother. And so I think in order for us to address urgent needs, we need to talk about them and we really do need to listen.
Deb Hall (07:50):
And we've seen a lot of that happened over the last year here in Worcester. Some had a better effect, others didn't, but people have to listen and we need to continue the conversation. We also have the idea that, you know, I'm from the Midwest, as I mentioned earlier, but that, because we live in the enlightened North, we don't have these issues. We don't do that. We know better. We don't treat people that way. We aren't parochial in our view. And in fact, what we have seen backed domestic violence advocate just three weeks ago was stabbed to death. A trans woman of color, Shahara just had her Memorial last week. And in fact, those things do happen in the North and they continue to happen all over our country. And so at the very time that we have seen in our history, a lot of progress being made that again, when I came out, and I won't tell my age, but when I came out, my family was very supportive, but I couldn't get married to my partner at the time.
Deb Hall (08:53):
So we have come a long way, even in my lifetime that people know my friends on what this rainbow, this is what this means. People understand terms like binary and trans. That is all relatively new, really. But as far as we have come, we are still faced with violence. We are still asked, why is this a big deal? Why do you have to do this? Why do you have to name yourself? And we continue to do that because we understand the necessity, how quickly these very rights that are human rights can be taken from us. And so it's a constant fight. And so people who don't have to justify your existence sometimes it's difficult for them to understand, but we understand that we must always keep it at before. So that would be, we need to keep these conversations going as hard as they may be. We must demand that people pay attention. However, we need to do that, and we need to continue to advocate that change happens. So as much as we hear that things have progressed, we still have a long way to go Josh. And so I'm happy for you and people in our community who are doing things to make sure that we are not invisible and that our concerns are being taken seriously.
Joshua Croke (10:22):
I want to bring voice to a couple of things that you mentioned, and that I talk about with folks, the first being urgency. And I always find it so important to establish, you know, a shared vocabulary for folks who are listening. And when I facilitate meetings and discussions, really looking at what do we mean when we say urgency, because urgency sounds critically important. And I think some folks misinterpret urgency as immediacy and recognizing urgency, and the time it takes to do this work is yes, there's immediate action that needs to happen. And we also need to be strategic in how to move that work forward, knowing the challenges that are presented. So I want to talk, you know, think about how you think about urgency and how do we both ignite the fire and folks to be like, we need to make change. And then also articulate that folks who are coming into learning more about the history of racism and systemic and structural oppression in America, that, you know, I, and I'm looking at and thinking about corporations and organizations who are like, Oh, we need to do something we need to do something and we need to do it fast.
Joshua Croke (11:38):
And the dangers of fast without like specific strategic, you know intent. And so I'm wondering what your thoughts about this kind of urgency are. And then we can, you know, keep our conversation moving.
Deb Hall (11:54):
Absolutely. And you bring up a good point. So there are two levels of urgency. So it's urgent cause it's our very lives right that we are talking about. So that's always urgent not being shocked today when I walk up urgent, like we need people to understand that. And then there is what you talk about that is just as important and urgent. But it's not a sprint, it's a marathon and an urge, right? So we operate, at least I do on those two levels. So let's talk about my bid for Worcester city council. And the reason I ran my why is representation, right? Because you can have people who are quote unquote progressive, or may have your interest in mind, but nobody's going to speak for your community. Like you will, right. That's the lens you have. The long-term goal,
Deb Hall (12:51):
there was an immediate, like we're running because people aren't hearing these, you know, we're out in the streets where we're demonstrating and the response is not the response some of us wanted, so we can continue to do that. But then some folks said, let's run. If you want to change things, make it happen, lets run. That's an immediate but the longer term goal is I told people, realistically speaking there were at least now one openly gay Latino. There was me identifying as a black lesbian and then we had a non-binary candidate. So in that sense, what I've told people, yeah, it might not go this route. Like we have to continue to think about if people want to run a slate where we are, what do we mean by progressive? Those are things we have to talk about and strategize around the immediate scene.
Deb Hall (13:50):
However, what happened is that in fact, you didn't have an openly gay candidate, openly lesbian candidate and openly non-binary candidate in 2021 in the city of Worcester run for city council seat. That makes me happy inside the first time, but I'm tired of saying the first in 2021. So we've done that, right. Automatically that needle is pushed to the left because you have these folks running as open lesbian, gay, non-binary candidates. Right. And so when we talk about June and celebration, keep those candidates in mind. I have since suspended my candidacy, but the very courage as I talked to the other candidates that it takes to openly run that way, speaks to where we think we are in our society, our city, but also speaks to where we want to go. Right. So that urgency of, Oh, somebody's got to run and we're going to identify as such because we're saying, yeah, we're queer, we’re here, right. We're running that didn't happen two years ago, but then there's a part that is very important. As you mentioned, that we have to strategize. For change to remain consistent and long-term, we have to strategize, we have to have a plan and it can't be none of us that this, because I've talked to him, but we didn't just wake up and say we're going to run just because.
Joshua Croke (15:22):
Well, and it shows that the marathon in some ways is working, right? Because obviously there is so much more work to be done to ensure that, you know, harm and violence doesn't happen to folks who put themselves in these positions of, you know, the public eye to run. But there are layers of safety that have been built to the point that people can run as queer, black folks in our community. And that is a testament to, you know, the work that has been done. And I think, you know, one of the things that I get frustrated with both in my personal life, as well as in professional life, is when folks respond with, you know, these things take time, right? And it's like, there's a yes there, but there's also, if that's one of the more immediate responses to request for action, it's literally, you know, a divergent point of like, Oh, where we're not ready to do this, so we're not gonna do it.
Joshua Croke (16:22):
Right. And this is one of the things that I challenge our city officials and our elected leaders and folks who run organizations in our community and challenge them to say, at what point does leadership, does effective leadership really become just stewardship and facilitation of what folks in your community are saying, right? Like, no single candidate is going to be able to represent the identity and experience of everyone in the community. So your role should be listening to everyone in the community and responding, reacting, advocating for, and resourcing the needs that are being expressed by folks. You don't have to necessarily understand every little piece, but if a community is coming together to say, like, we need that, we need fair free Worcester, public transit. And this is why then, like, what are the mechanisms that we can move forward to realizing that? And how do we set priority for that over, you know, things that might be flashier and more attractive to a certain group of constituents, but not actually meeting the needs of the most vulnerable folks in our community.
Deb Hall (17:39):
So we have to raise our voices and not just raise our voices, but then you have to do something about it. And, so sometimes what I tell people you know, I'm out there with the best of them at a demonstration. I can do that. But as we saw particularly last year with the lack of transparency in local government we saw people out there giving their time. There were hours and hours of testimony from the public around certain budgets, et cetera. And that continues this, you know, whether it's comprehensive sex ed whether it's folks saying, okay, so we waited and now we have to sue, right? So we have the lawsuit about representation even on our school committee. The point you bring up, I think is a very good one. There's always around urgency.
Deb Hall (18:34):
We were talking about that and people who tell us, yeah, I'm with you just wait, you can't have everything you can't have in right now. Give us more time. You know, and as one of my favorite writers, James Baldwin said with somebody told him that like, you know, I gave you, my daddy gave us time. My grandmama gave her time. My uncle gets, I mean, how much longer do you expect people to wait? We've been doing it. This is not brand new, the same you know a lot of us mark the lynching of George Floyd a couple of days ago. And as the YW we put out a statement and I said to someone, we can actually put out the original statement because we still haven't moved in these areas. We are still talking about a civilian review board. Why is that something we want to argue about? Why is that controversial?
Deb Hall (19:31):
And so you need people, again, back to the demonstrations. It's a little non-linear, but back to the demonstrations, we can do that. If you're doing that, and you're demonstrating in front of folks who don't care or don't feel there will be any consequences, even if they vote a different way, it doesn't matter. It's so our level of activism has to be multi-layered right. And we need to be able to say, not only this is what we want and talk about it and articulate it and gather around it, but also be willing to say, and furthermore, let me be part of that decision-making body, right? So there's a part of educating, but then there's the part of doing and bringing people from those communities, which I always think is the best to actually bring those people from the communities affected, who are talking to you to the table, and how do we do that?
Deb Hall (20:29):
So, you know, it is my hope that more, I don't have a problem with identity politics, more black folks and more Brown people that more queer folks will run. And that's why I think this was a historic time with three black women running two of us at suspended campaigns for different reasons. But you also have that historical moment of three black women running for city council in Worcester, and being told to wait is not an option because it's our very lives that we are talking about. So I think we have some real good energy in the city and that we will continue to fight the good fight.
Joshua Croke (21:09):
Yeah. And you know, so much of what you're saying is so resonant to me and the work that I had done previously in community development, looking at how do we grow the economy and look at economic growth and, you know, what new businesses need to open? And it was, you know, I now look at it as such a naïve way to look at community growth and development, and so much so that I changed the direction of my work from community development at the level in which that I was doing it to now facilitating community conversations and focusing on community engagement strategy, because as a queer person, myself, I can walk in and represent my own experience in that space. But as a white person, I can not represent the experience of my queer siblings of color. Right. And so I could not consciously do the work that I intended or desired to be a part of without completely shifting the way in which I did that work.
Joshua Croke (22:18):
And to truly become like a facilitator in these discussions to say, I am here not representing you, not, you know, I'm here to make conversation easy and to create space where we can have discourse and we can agree and disagree with each other, and look at moving towards action. And I think that's the power of facilitation. And you mentioned James Baldwin. And one of the frequent quotes that I use, and I'll be paraphrasing this, but in my work with corporations and organizations who are looking at diversity equity and inclusion work, and oftentimes you got the comment of like, well, we don't talk politics in the workplace and, you know I'm in encouraged, and I think, again, this is another success of the marathon that, you know, our communities have been on is that you can say activism in most workplaces now, and it doesn't lead to you being, you know, fired, or we considered the company radical necessarily. But when I talk about fostering discourse, like how do we truly enable authentic conversation? Because when you're silencing people from quote unquote talking politics, you're silencing the experiences that people have lived, that you don't feel are valuable or important enough to bring into the workplace. And so, you know, James Baldwin says “we can disagree and still love each other, as long as that disagreement is rooted in my oppression.” And that is so critical, I think more people are really resonating with that message.
Deb Hall (23:55):
Absolutely. And, that's one of my favorite quotes too. Yeah. We can disagree all day about hair color, but we can disagree about my very life, like me living and living in some sense of freedom and wanting to know what it's like to be free as Nina Simone sings about. I think that you mentioned something that's very important. These conversations can't be strictly intellectual conversations we're having about my very life and, you know, cause people want to harm me based on that. People want to harm you based on who you are. And so we need folks to do the hard work. We say that all the time, but I tell even some of my quote unquote, progressive friends, like you have to get in the trenches. And that's why, you know, for me, I call those folks really doing the work.
Deb Hall (24:47):
Not only pushing through themselves, but bringing other folks along and then amplifying really, because we use that word a lot over the last year, amplifying, re-imagining. And I said, we have to just get away from saying these things and really feeling them. So then you become a comrade, Josh, you know, you're more than an ally, you become a comrade. But comrade is someone as I remember reading, I didn't make this up as a white woman and I forget her name now who was part of the African National Congress Freedom Movement and worked with Mandela and different folks. And she said, no, I consider myself not even an ally. I consider myself a comrade. Cause I got into the trenches with people. I mean, I didn’t just talk about it. I got into the trenches with people. So even I want to say, you know, getting back to YWCA and different organizations in our city that are doing the work, you know, you talk the talk, you walk the walk.
Deb Hall (25:48):
And so it's always been important to them specifically during this time to amplify again, voices of girls and women of color, we have to do that as organizations, Holy Cross needed to do what they needed to do as an organization and hiring a black man, the first black person and the first lay person to that university, they have an amazing influence in Worcester. And so when you set the stage, YWCA, Holy Cross, Community Health Link, where you set the stage for these things to happen, other people will follow because you're very influential. And so those boards, those trustees have made a conscious decision. And I always say, you know, these things need to happen. Not just at city hall, but at our institution and organizations who help people around the city nonprofits, right? Talk about representation. We need to talk about representation at our institutions of higher learning and our non-profits because all of these voices are very important.
Deb Hall (26:55):
They're very important. And it's not that Brown and black people weren't qualified because you hear that a lot too sorta like the whole weight thing most of the time, and I will say this specifically about the demographic of black women we are the most educated group in America because we've had to be historically, you know, family sent their daughters to school because the sons could be brick masons. There was manual labor, and they could make a pretty good living. Black folks didn't want their daughters working in white households. And one of the reasons they didn't want their daughters working in white households is because there was the possibility of abuse, specifically rape by white males in those households. And so this had some standing in terms of why black women were educated the way they were. But, we're but we are one of the most educated groups in America ever doubly educating.
Deb Hall (27:49):
We have the experience. And so when we say to folks, why does this room? I'm still in rooms where, I mean, the only one and we're in 2021, and that's not something I find amazing or something I should be praised for and saying where are the other people? Because I know they exist. And so in this moment, Josh, when you mentioned that you are a facilitator, but I hope folks are comrades. And when you're in a place where you don't see somebody like me, you say, hold on, hold on. Cause I'm not there. Hold on. We need to bring these voices to the table. Right. And it's what I do when I'm in spaces. You know, cause people don't know, I don't want walk in. Sometimes I have a t-shirt on say blacklist, but people don't necessarily know all about me, but I make it clear from the beginning.
Deb Hall (28:38):
And some folks may say, “you don't need to tell me,” yes, I do need to tell you all of that because you need to understand this is who I am at the table and we're not a monolithic. I don't represent all black queer women, all black folks. I don't, but I am one voice. I have one voice and there's several more of us. So I find it, you know, bringing all people to the table. But if it is, we don't have someone who is differently abled at the table. We don't have someone who is hard of hearing or deaf. We're working on that now. I'm like, we have to do better at this. Even in my organization, we can’t amplify, if we're not taking into account or we don't have people from different communities at our tables. So I appreciate definitely you bringing that up and saying, I'm a facilitator. And looking at all the ways we develop community, not just businesses, not which is important and talking about who's owning business, who's getting those loans, right? There's so many layers of that. But developing community and as my suspended campaign, building with community was very important for those reasons, right. Are taking that into account.
Joshua Croke (29:48):
Absolutely. And I think, you know, that's so strongly right now, for me, echoes into engaging and listening to youth in our community. You know, we see so much going on with the school committee, you mentioned the lawsuit earlier and the city's relative amicable response to that and says, we're not gonna, you know, challenge this. We're gonna look at changing the way that our school committee works so that it is more intentionally representative. And I think the recent success of the work that's been done in the community advocating for comprehensive sex ed, which we know is so critical for LGBTQ folks in our schools, students who are queer, or questioning and figuring out who they are is everybody does when you're that age, you know, growing up. And if you don't have the resources at home, you know, this is again, like part of this conversation is about the public good, the public, you know, the public effort of ensuring equitable and successful outcomes for young people for the next generation.
Joshua Croke (31:00):
You know, and we know when queer kids are not connected to information about their identities or their bodies, their increase you know, there's increased risk of suicide and depression and anxiety and all of these things that our responsibility as a community, you know, I referenced the, the tragedy of The Commons a lot in conversations, really thinking about what do we give and give up as to live as part of a collective, right. And what is true, like equality look like, and we are focusing and center pointing equity in the conversation. And for listeners who you know, maybe losing some of the track of, of this conversation you know, really looking at equity is outcomes not determined by your social characteristics, right? Looking at simply being able to exist, be and thrive period without the caveats of societal oppressions and, you know, stacked harms against communities, et cetera.
Joshua Croke (32:07):
And the other piece that we talked about and I'm interested in your thoughts on this step are what are ways that we can continue to focus and build community wealth, connecting people to resources that enable them to thrive as well as do this work. When we started this conversation, you talked about being an activist. And, you know, I think it is something that folks who are in marginalized groups should not have to be an activist unfortunately, right? It's like this forced, you know, response to the time that we live in. But I'm wondering if you could share some thoughts on that.
Deb Hall (32:49):
I love that Josh you're right. We shouldn't have to be activists. We shouldn't, it is extremely exhausting. Let me tell you that. And what it does is zaps your energy to really kind of be proactive. And so when we talk about, we were having a discussion yesterday in our public policy committee and YWCA and other places I've had these discussions is that the YWCA nationally you know, it's not get out the vote, it's voter engagement cause registration, even locally, it's not the real issue. It's getting those folks out to vote in elections, specifically local elections. And so we need to engage folks and the process now having said that, I imagine in getting to your point we have these ideas, so there's a public hearing. Why didn't you come to the public hearing?
Deb Hall (33:45):
I don't know, maybe cause they had to take two buses home and maybe they didn’t. Maybe they just drove home from a job that has worn them out. And it's more physical than mental or more mental than physical or both who knows. But then we have children to take care of. I tell people even on the, you know, I served on the Advisory Committee on Status of Women. And even as I encourage other folks to join those committees and commissions that the city is interested in people joining and being civically engaged. I have to step back sometimes and say to myself, even that's a luxury for some groups, it's not that people want to be hampered, that people like what's going on, that people don't think they should have other things and want to promote those like zero fair.
Deb Hall (34:33):
It's not that people don't care, it's that people are exhausted. And let's talk about that. Even those of us in the community that are, we know activists, you know, even when I was looking at who do we have running for office, you know, it's exhausting running for office. It requires a lot, right? It requires an infrastructure that most communities who don't have access to resources, it's very hard to do. Right. And if you're not connected it's very hard to do. It's not that easy. It's not that, especially if you don't have community support. So we can't just, as I said earlier, just talk about it or intellectualize about it. What can we do in the now, in the immediacy of the moment to say I'm going to help somebody? And the way I do that, I think the way you do it, for sure.
Deb Hall (35:20):
And the way others, we strategize, we organize, we do bring issues to the fore. But I also mentor, I do a lot of one-on-one because that, and that mentoring is customized. So however I can be helpful to someone in a community who has more barriers than other folks. I will do that. If that means that I give up my time to do that, it's not really as good in time to somebody else, but definitely sharing my time with someone to help them. That's fine. I think it starts there and what we say, like one person can make a difference. It's not just some trite remark or comment we're making. It really is true. It is, again, I go back to the reason I identify in places the way I do, because trust me, as I told the non-black, there's some kid you're helping, there's some queer kid I'm helping.
Deb Hall (36:19):
There really is. There's some queer kid. You are helping Josh, that we can't take away from, everything doesn't have to be in the spotlight. Everything doesn't have to be organized. I don't need a hundred people because in this moment and even as you know, sometimes I don't think about it because we just, normally we do the work and while I identify, so we're just doing the work day in, day out. So it's just what is part of our lives. But I overwhelm myself sometimes. And thinking about in this moment, even as incoming Executive Director of YWCA of central Mass, I am a black, queer, woman, right? So if you call me, if anybody else calls me, if you want me to ride on the hood of a car, I'm going to do that for my community and the larger community, because it's important.
Deb Hall (37:09):
You know, a couple of years ago when our last election cycle a mother came to me, a black woman came to me and she said, I'm just so excited. Debbie, my daughter saw maybe it was Shantelle at the time. I can't remember. There was several people running saw her picture on a yard sign or Gemma saw their picture on a yard sign. And she said, mommy, look, what are they doing? What's that about? She looks just like me. Why is she on there? And then that daughter who was eight years old, said, I want to get involved. I can't tell you how much representation matters. So the thing you know is that you do it one day at a time and maybe one person at a time. And then we have the strategy, but I don't want us to forget and people to forget that in our everyday lives as we identify who we are, as we let people know who we are, we are helping someone and the LGBTQIA community to comprehensive sex ed
Deb Hall (38:10):
Absolutely. We’ll a fight for that, but I'm also going to come to your classroom and identify as a black women. Guess what? Cause if you are, you don't have to tell me, but know that I'm going to come in and identify that way so that, you know, it's possible and that it happened. And that is so, so important as you have done with Love Your Labels, whoever you are, whatever you are, you know, I do, we have to say, we're not absolutely. You have to say it too. You have to say, you're non-binary you have to that, wasn't a question I had to, I didn't have to convince them to do that, but that is, gosh, that is so important.
Joshua Croke (38:50):
It is. And you know, and we know the pushback to that too, right? People are like, Oh, you make it all about yourself. You make it about this. And it's like, no, like I, you know, with Love Your Labels, you mentioned Love Your Labels. And I've had a lot of conversations with folks in the queer community and a lot of pushback from certain folks in the queer community, usually older generations, because of how much harm has been attached, how much stigma, how much shame, how much violence and bias has been associated with parts of who we are that should just be able to describe and not define who we are. But these words that should be descriptive are so important. And contextualize some of our lived experience that we do find it valuable and critical to claim those identities. Because I came out as non-binary a decade after I came out as. And I had that ability because of visibility in the community. I saw other folks stepping forward and being courageous. And I look at that and I applaud it. And I say like, wow, if that single person could have had an impact on my life, you never know that shopping in the grocery store wearing four inch heels in a beautiful, beautiful eyes with a full beard, could change a little, a little kid, a little kid's life.
Deb Hall (40:22):
I love it. And the best makeup I don't, this is normal. See this for me, this is normal. So do what you do. Go ahead. And those cute heels and skirts, and I love it. And, you know, acknowledging, as you've mentioned, the generational divide in a lot of ways, not just in the LGBTQIA plus community, I'm also founder Worcester Black History Project, thinking about you know, the steering committee is made up, it's all different ages and it's amazing, we work well together, but amazing how people's perspectives are different and for different reasons. They've seen folks lynched, literally hanging from trees, right? They lived through Martin Luther King, lived through the civil rights era. And, here, even in our community you know, I would never out anybody, but we have LGBTQIA, we have a larger community than most people would think, and they are in these positions of power, right.
Deb Hall (41:25):
And that's their choice and for different reasons, people come out and definitely, I'm not part of that group that would ever out anybody. I don't think impressive. I don't think any good comes of it because everybody has different stories and it's not safe. It's still not safe. It's not safe. We are who we are because we can be, and also we are who we are and able to be who we are because of those who came before us and made a way for us. So I don't ever, you know, definitely be respectful of people and when they want to, if they want to declare anything, but we do have a very impressive LGBTQIA community impressive in the sense that there is some power associated with folks. And so it's important, but not my call. What we can do, you and I, and other folks who are doing the work is put ourselves out there and put ourselves out there. It sometimes comes with a price, for sure. But definitely if it helps somebody, some little girl, if it helps some, you know, person who says, yeah, I don't feel any of that. You know, gender is a construct and I'm not biting and I'm, they/them, that's pretty much normal in our vocabulary now, it wasn't even five years ago, 10 years ago. Right.
Joshua Croke (42:44):
Well, and in the conversation about identity, and this is kind of a personal question because I recognize my privilege in being able to, if I have the desire to be able to walk into a boardroom, looking like a straight white man, right. I have to expose my queerness. And that's a choice that I get to make. You can potentially hide your queerness, but you walk into spaces as a black woman. And so how is that, you know, having that intersection, what is, you know wondering your thoughts are some of your experience there.
Deb Hall (43:21):
Sure. It's interesting that you bring that up. Because when we talk about, you know, different identities and different avenues of activism and advocating for certain things, one of the things I have run in over the years is just in the LGBTQIA plus community is no different in a lot of respects then our heterosexual communities where you have white males who hold the power, I would say in the cities I have lived in, when it came to Pride and in Pride committees, it was pretty much the hierarchy was the same. It was white males, probably with lesbians and say, you women out here who didn't even want to acknowledge non binary, because they know that at the time, very little I didn't see a lot of Brown and black people. And then there have been and it continues to be, those movements will say, you know, all oppression is the same.
Deb Hall (44:25):
Well, that's not true, but we don't need to rank oppression. I don't think that does us any good either. And for someone like me who claims many oppressions and additive analysis won't do because it's the intersection itself makes that oppression very unique. So you know, and at the same time, there is some value in coalescing around issues, but you are right. And this is the point I bring up all the time. But if you wanted to hide your queerness, there's some people say that is not an option. And I can't hide my queerness, Debbie. But if you wanted to hide your queerness as this white male, you could easily play that off and walk into a boardroom. I'm taking this skin, this hair and everything else with me in there. So I may not identify as lesbian. And if I'm at a particular church setting or social setting, I can choose to hide that or not share that.
Deb Hall (45:20):
Cause it's just not going to get me anywhere that time. Or maybe I feel like I'll get some hate from it. I can play that off, but you're right. I can never, I'll always walk into a room with my Brown self with these freckles, these lips, this nose and it's not going to change. And so when I talked to particularly white males in any movement but particularly LGBTQIA plus community that you have to own that you have that privilege. And then we have to talk about all the isms that can wear you out. So even then, you know, you can be queer but your daddy was a millionaire. Maybe you inherited a business. You and I are not speaking the same language. Now we can okay. Identity politics. We can identify and coalesce around this particular issue, but you still don't have an understanding of, for some of us you know that have multiple identities, which is why we say black women lead, that's for reason, it's not being arrogant because the least among us, right?
Deb Hall (46:27):
The people closest to the pain to be closest to the power when they intersect for us, I can't be anything. I love being black and all kinds of things. There's also joy to that. My life is joyful. I love my life. Like I'm not here to say like every day I wake up and suffer, but everyday I do wake up and I know I'm black. I do know that. And so, and I know I'm a woman you know, identified as such. And so I take all of that into account. Like it, cause all of that is me. And so when I'm at the table, I'm speaking for, you know women, not all women, of course, but women, black folks, Brown folks, lesbians. You know, working professionals when we talk about classes. So there's so many, most of us claim many identities. But when I'm coming to a table, you sit back and listen, right. Cause we can talk about this, Pride, we can talk about this, but I also have to talk about what it's like being a black lesbian in this world and that's different too.
Joshua Croke (47:33):
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I give a talk about the, I have a beard and wear heels and you know, I, and it might seem kind of like this anecdote, but having to your point of like, I can't not be my queer self anymore. Like now that I've stepped out of that, like I was in the back closet with the shoes and then I went into the middle closet and then I'm like, now I'm fully out. So like, I'm here, I am now. But, and I can't go back because like, there is this freedom and this release that sometimes you don't even recognize the burden that you hold above yourself until you really kind of step out. But also, you know, having used to be walking into these spaces, like in a suit and a tie in the shoes, you know, like the dressing, the drag of, you know, corporate America, right.
Joshua Croke (48:25):
You know, corporate America's drag, I have had the experience of, you know, men in that room going from, Hey, do you want to get a beer with the guys after work too? My wife would love to take your shopping, you know? And like those, you know, we know those micro interactions are what unfortunately drive a lot of this country is my buddy and the beers, and this is where we make the relationships where we make the deals, where we do the thing. And if we're not invited to those social spaces in those circles, you know, that's an additional layer of challenge and like part of the fight.
Deb Hall (49:06):
You're absolutely right. And that's a very good point that you make. When I mentioned earlier that demographically black women at one of the most educated groups in America, when we're looking at pay equity and parity on boards, et cetera, with women in general, we acknowledge you know women's equal pay day then as black women, that is Latina, that is Asian. I think Asian women come before Latino women, but then we have all of these days because it's all different. Because those identities, but one of the things that they say, well, if we are one of the most educated groups in America, why don't we see the same movement that white women have seen? You know? So we talk about a glass ceiling and for black women, I say it's a concrete wall, really it's even harder to get through. And one of the things that this one study found is that we don't have, we don't network, we don't have access to networks.
Deb Hall (49:59):
We don't have access to the same resources as some of that comes from just what you were talking about. Those very interactions, that relationship building, that fundraising, et cetera. Those things happen at ballgames. Those things happen after work. And if you're not invited, right, you're not part of that conversation. They also happen with people who are comfortable with people who look like them and think like them. And so we have seen, we all do it, right? Like we, you go into a room and it just depends on who I have more in common with, but I make no offense to some Brown, a black people cause I’m like hey it might be okay. You know, but then I may find myself, you know, there's some LGBTQIA plus people and I'm like, well, that's part of my identity too. I went to this particular school.
Deb Hall (50:48):
I went to Washington University. So there's some of my former classmates. So it just depends on the circle, you are in it where you're comfortable. But some of that means, like I said, when I said we have to do the work, we have to actively do the work. I hire people who don't look like me necessarily and who don't think the same way and who are smarter than me and who know more about things. I think that's how we are richer, but we have to really work at it. And it's those little things that you can't always really document, but we know they happen like, Hey, I'm not going to have beers. You know, this conversation about work, but you know, those relationships are building and you are not part of it because they don't see you as part of their group because you're not like them.
Deb Hall (51:32):
And that's something definitely we need to work on and why some of us are saying, okay, we have to start having these avenues for these discussions. And as people are going into the workplace is talk about those times who's being picked to lead a team while you've been picked the lead a team. Cause that's your friend at work, right. I'm not your friend. You like me, but I'm not your friend. I don't hang out and come over to barbecues. And our wives don't get together. You know, we don't get together as couples and those things happen. So it's very true, good point to talk about Josh. Yeah.
Joshua Croke (52:03):
Thank you. Well, so in our last minute, I always like to pose the question of what's our most elegant next step as a community. What are, for folks listening who may have kind of come in and out of some of the understanding around some of the discussion that we've had, what is the next thing that folks can do to really move forward this urgency of right now?
Deb Hall (52:29):
I'd say organize and organize in a way that what I find specifically I’m going to talk specifically about Worcester, because that's what I know and where I live is that a lot of things, like I said, yourself included, we're all doing a lot of things, right. We running for office with all of these things and we don't, we're not all the same obviously, but that needs to be a little bit more coordination. I feel like there's several things going on and there should be, it's not to say there shouldn't be several things going on because we should have all of that. But some organization, and as you said earlier some strategic thinking about our next steps. So Pride, but where are we going? Where are we going in terms of helping to build community spaces for our community, and for others to enjoy, but how do we really affect change?
Deb Hall (53:19):
And I'd like to see, you know, let's be a little bit more involved on those sounds strange, cause we're doing activist stuff, but politically, and what that looks like, are we engaging in different spaces in places where we can kind of start building coalitions, right? I like to see three of us this year, four of us, five of us in the next election cycle. And I like to see people be out about that because it's still important. It's still important. And if you can't, that's all right. If I know I'll help you still. So I like, you know, we don't have a chamber at our home. We don't have a room of our own. We're talking about spaces in the spaces that we would have open for us to normally meet. I just see a need for that.
Deb Hall (54:09):
We don't all go to bars. That's not where I go. I would never meet anyone else. And you know, when I first came out, that's the only place I knew to meet other people. I had to go to a bar, but we are everywhere. We are doing everything we're in the arts. We're, all over the place. And I just say, you need to make sure that folks know that so that we are visible. And we are aware, so I like to see more coordination and definitely more emphasis placed on how we operate politically in this city. And definitely how we socialize and offer those spaces for socialization and definitely being a part of the school curriculum, which I think we're on our way to being so that students are learning about and knowing that in talking about that it's okay. So we have, we've come a long way, but we have such a long way to go. And I think the city is ripe and ready for that. And open to that.
Joshua Croke (55:07):
Great. Thank you so much, Deb, for joining me in this space today and as always so great to chat with you and happy Pride.
Deb Hall (55:15):
Thank you. Happy Pride, Josh
Joshua Croke (55:18):
Thank you for listening to Public Hearing, our podcast and radio show that airs Wednesdays at 6:00 PM on WICN 90.5 FM Worcester's only NPR affiliate station and wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much to Deb Hall for joining us today. My name is Joshua Croke and this has been the Public Hearing podcast, which is created and produced by Action! by Design. We're a design studio that facilitates community engagement and social change innovation and provides equity centered design, branding and storytelling services. Learn more about us at actionbydesign.co. Our audio producer is Giuliano D'Orazio. Thank you to Eric Gratton and Molly Gammon and Shaun Chung, who also support the production of Public Hearing. And as always, thanks for listening.
