The Power of Stories with Dr. Mariel Novas (Part 2)
Continuing our conversation with Dr. Mariel Novas, we dive into catalyzing community connectivity, racism as smog in the air, and finding time for joy in the midst of turmoil.
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Transcript for this episode
JOSHUA CROKE:
Hello listeners! This is part 2 of my conversation with the magnificent Mariel Novas; educator, innovator, immigrant, and community builder. If you missed part 1, I recommend going back and listening, but if not — there is a ton of great new content ahead! To remind you where we left off, Mariel and I were talking about the importance of contact as a mechanism for community healing and how we still very much live in a segregated society. Here’s a little rewind:
MARIEL NOVAS:
Right. And so I think about this and I think about, okay how do we- how do we achieve contact? Right. And that is what we have to get into tactics then. Right. So if the, if at the root of like, lack of contact is segregation and sort of those differentials, what has to be broken to break segregation? And this is the question this country has been struggling with since its inception. So again, let's not act like we haven't had this conversation before. We've just chosen to do a bandaid fix, call it fixed and moved on. We integrated schools in 1954, y'all allegedly. Right. And so I really wish I could see my face cause I am giving a lot of tude.
JOSHUA CROKE:
I'm witnessing it. And I'm thriving in it.
MARIEL NOVAS:
But yeah.
JOSHUA CROKE:
Well, and, and when you talk about Obama, you know, it's also infuriating on the impact that that has on the other side of the equation as well.
MARIEL NOVAS:
That's why we're living what we're living.
JOSHUA CROKE:
Right. Exactly. It's like, well, yeah, black folks have made it. Oh yeah, racism is done. And I was saying this to my partner the other day, I was ranting about some con like arguments that I was having with family following the first debate. Lovely. And it, so much of these conversations go back to like my piece of the pie and looking at the fact that pie has only so many pieces. Right? And like when you are used to seeing only white people in television and media, but you don't recognize that that's all that you're seeing. And then you start seeing a black character and a Latina character and a queer character.
JOSHUA CROKE:
And you start seeing these additions, you in your mind are telling yourself that they're subtracting me from this equation and not recognizing that, like this isn't pie folks, like we are a collective society and we need to solve our problems or else we will all die. Climate change. And that, that part of it is just like so infuriating to me. And I remember I go back to a college course that I took, where we read like an article called the Tragedy of the Commons and that stuck out so pointedly in my mind, because of the notion that in order to be part of a collective ecosystem, there are personal sacrifices we all must make so that, that can function. Right. And I feel like people forget that all the time. And they placed themselves in, where can I put myself in this social contract that has me above somebody else because we've been sold. The notion that equal is impossible.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Equal actually equal is socialism.
JOSHUA CROKE:
Right. Yeah.
Intro Music
This is the Public Hearing Podcast — part 2 with Mariel Novas.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Okay. And that is the in or coming in. And that is the big evil. Right. And so I, I appreciate you saying that because I- this is all intentional and by design, right? Like we have to call it what it is. And it's propaganda, it's propaganda that started in 1776, maybe even likely before. And, and again, like until we're able to have like really real honest conversations about that fact that we have been set up on a bed of lies and myths. And we have to reevaluate reassess what it means to be an American. Because right now we are by every account, just like, Nope, we're, we're failing. And we need to be able to say that we are failing right now.
JOSHUA CROKE:
And that goes back to the piece and not to keep reiterating the same point, but the individualistic mindset and like how people won't even engage in a conversation about the possibility that structural racism exists, because they think that you're accusing them of being racist. Like it matters. Yes. Like no one- like the fact that you are not perceived as racist is a very narcissistic view that has absolutely zero impact.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Back to the individual self-focused self-centeredness. "So You're calling me a racist", right. And as opposed to pointing out structural and systemic racism, I actually, I would love to that point to offer my favorite understanding of how to conceptualize racism. So Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum in "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" talks about racism as being smog in the air. And she talks about, you know, sometimes smog is thick and visible and you can see it, you know, to make a direct comparison right now, our world, right? Like racism is thick. It is visible. It is right there. Most often these days it operates invisibly, but it is still pollution. It's still smog. And so I share that because, you know, when I talk to folks and when I, you know, in my work, I make sure to say, this is not about ascribing individual blame.
Yes. There are racists out there, but the taboo sort of like, I don't want to be called a racist or like you are accusing me of being a racist, takes us away from the real problem, which is the ways in which we uphold the system of racism. Right. And the fact that when we all accept that we're all breathing in polluted air, we're all breathing in racism. All of a sudden it's like, Oh shoot. So it's actually about me taking responsibility, if I care enough to spit out that smog, to get that out of my system, then we start talking about anti racism. Right. If we take as true racism, our space, it's in the waters that we're in the schools, we attend the jobs, we, you know, the houses we buy. Like if we accept that it's everywhere, it's smog. Then it empowers us to do something about it because it's not about me being like "Josh you racist". Right. Like I'm like, okay, conversation over, like what, you know, I don't even know about that. And then, you know, one thing I wanted to come back to super quickly about this pie notion. I like the second you start talking about pie one, I got hungry. But two, I try to think about my grandma and my grandma- um you can literally break off, like, I'm not, I'm not exaggerating. Y'all like a piece of bread. And she will ask everybody in the room, "Do you want a piece of bread?" And she will break off little pieces. That little freaking piece of bread will feed the entire family. And so I fundamentally don't understand this whole, like, you know, like my thing, and like this belongs to me and like, they're like discrete pieces of, you know, pie to give around. I'm a former math teacher. Okay. Technically speaking, we could cut that up till infinity. And that is what most people of the world do
JOSHUA CROKE:
Yes. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna reference a religious character, basically going back to my experience and how I'm starting to form some more thoughts and opinions on how people take like position on some of this stuff, right. Like there is, and this isn't an uncommon story across religions and spiritual kind of doctrine and things like that. But, the notion of like a deitiestic human, who, you know, is, you know, preaching to masses. And there's the, this, the big scenario of there are so many people and there weren't enough, like fish in the basket. Right. And so instead of instead of teaching the community, how to create more efficient fishing systems, he used magic to just create more fish. Right? And so there's this notion of like, we can't accomplish things without magic that I, and again, this, this thought is really just forming in my head over the past few days. So I wonder if you have thoughts on that, but like the, the notion that there are things in this world that are absolutely unattainable and like true equality is one of those things. And I think it relates back so much to different ideologies, different, you know, fundamental belief systems, different like experiences at home and, and things like that. So I'm rambling at this point, but wondering if you have thoughts on that.
MARIEL NOVAS:
I have thoughts about everything I'm really drawn by this idea of like magic, creating more fish, as opposed to building the capacity of folks to fish themselves, which reminds me of our system of government. So, and like Republicans and Democrats and everywhere in between are equally as guilty of this at the sort of the class that holds power, right. There is a vested interest in maintaining the system and structures of where money flows exactly as it is. Right. When we talk about even our like social safety systems that have helped my family, without question access, food opportunity, housing jobs, et cetera, my family still lives in Section Eight, housing. All those things are incredibly incredibly important. And what we have created by having these, these services without the, the sort of capacity-building tools to allow people to progress, to break through, you know, socioeconomic strata, we are- what we're doing is we are maintaining a paternalistic system that perpetually holds people in a position of need. And so we have families who for generations have been dependent on welfare, not because they want to be dependent. Who in the world wants to be dependent on the government for anything?
If you, everyone fundamentally the human condition is, you know, the search for personal freedom. When we talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs at the very tippy top of the pyramid is self actualization. It is basic, right? Nobody wants to be dependent on anybody. And yet we've created the conditions in this country where that is what that is you, you, that is where you have to go. And in the, in the absence of creating an educational system, that is actually progressive, that actually educates and prepares people for the jobs that are out there in the absence of like training programs that actually support people in being able, able to develop skills, to have other jobs that are not retail or food service, we have massive numbers of immigrants. My family's an immigrant family.
My dad taught me math when I was like in first or second grade, because he's an accountant. He was an accountant in the DR. Brilliant man has been cleaning bathrooms his whole life. Con dignidad, right. With a lot of dignity, now drives for Uber. Well, not now because we made him stop cause of COVID. But you know, the point being, we have these, all these brilliant people right here at home, right. What if we invested in like, alright, let's create more opportunities for English classes. Do you know how long the wait list is for a new immigrant to be able to be part of an English class? Sometimes years, and you need English in order to be able to access school in order to get credentialed in order to get all kinds of other jobs, you can't be a front office person or a receptionist if you don't speak English.
And so I'm sharing this because these are the many ways in which we lock people into destitution. We lock people into poverty, and then we blame them for using the few systems that are out there to actually allow you to live. And often not even a dignified life, just live, come on now, stop blaming the individual. Recognize that you have systematically created a country where that is the only way to subsist because you, we, and I'm not going to say we have invested in what we have right now. We have said, we've, we'd rather keep funding WIC I've minimum levels, by the way, then actually create the programs necessary to lift people out of poverty and to create opportunity. That's the truth.
JOSHUA CROKE:
And it, again goes back to this individual, like personalized experience, a conversation and argument, because I don't know a single person that I, you know, and even with COVID and so many people relying and depending on systems right now, who would say like, Oh, my child doesn't deserve access to healthcare right now, right now, because of all this stuff going on. So they believe in a socialized health care system, but then they are so apt to deny it for someone that they don't know, because it then becomes something that is foreign to them.
MARIEL NOVAS:
I think of like the emoji with like the monkey, like holding, like the, see no evil, hear no evil, or you're like covering your eyes, covering your ears. It's just like, man, at some point I'm like, you got to open something, you know, like it might not be hitting you, it's hitting a lot of people. And so, and I, and that's something I really struggled with, to be really honest with you. It's just like, I don't get it. I don't get it in, in part, because I'm just like an empath and feel absolutely everything. But like, how can you see, you know, I think about for example migrants at the border, just like I look, my body goes into, like, I can't even describe the summer where, you know, the Trump administration put into effect, you know, two summers ago, the separation of families, I was distraught for months.
MARIEL NOVAS:
I'm not kidding that entire summer. I barely left my house. I kept crying, I remember hearing the audio of the little girl you know, calling her mom and like repeating over and over again to the person like "my aunt, I have an aunt", the girl, the girl was like four years old. And then continue to trust cities to, to, to watch, you know, like the, the labeling of like things like migrant caravans with such insensitivity and callousness. Without taking the time to know, like, why are people leaving? Also, what's the role of the US in having people leaving central America? Why is it so bad that you would risk death, rape, all sorts of things, drowning if you're crossing the river, right Just to be able to maybe live.
JOSHUA CROKE:
And risk that for yourself and your children like that, the experiences of like the kids that had drowned like crossing, I don't know how that doesn't make people fall to pieces. I don't know either. And, and that, you know, in this-
MARIEL NOVAS:
Or women being forced into hysterectomies. How we are not all rioting right now, how the international community isn't like sanctioning the US is wild.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Even just one woman being forcibly. Oh my God. Like I just, I can't imagine it right, much less something happening that falls in line with a long history of this country, doing that exact same thing for sterilization on women of color, from native women to Puerto Rican women on the Island, to black women. And now we're seeing it again. And again, here we are one ignoring the history that it stands on and to doing like la-di-da- like it's not happening.
JOSHUA CROKE:
So I'm going to ask a frustrating question-
MARIEL NOVAS:
Please.
JOSHUA CROKE:
Because so much of this work around informing people in dismantling structures of oppression, of re-imagining systems to work for people. So much of it, again, exists around an individual's belief in things that happen in the world that they might not directly see, how might we create undeniable- and again, frustrating question- undeniable information and experiences. So that the thing- the atrocities that are happening in the world and in this country are, are undeniable and are not used as propaganda tools by, you know, different sides of political parties to shape a narrative because they control, again, this system AKA the system of the United States as it were. And I don't have an answer for that.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Yeah. and like, your listeners might be like really dissatisfied with mine. Cause it'll seem like really, huh? Storytelling. I, people respond to people. You can show them the data, you can show them the stats, you can dah, dah, dah, but like accounts of personal narrative and story really penetrate. And so, and I always think about, you know John Lewis and Bloody Sunday and for those who have studied, you know, sort of like the events of the sixties Bloody Sunday was a pivotal moment. Right. And sort of the raising of consciousness in this country. I mean, and think about it, right? This is, think about breaking the back of Jim Crow, right. To convince people in that era that this is a problem wholly, and what did they do? They were extremely strategic. They weaponized the media. They said, okay, you're going to broadcast this, come.
And what happened when people saw the abuse at the hands of the state of police, right. Beating people who had no weapons in their Sunday best, right, children, women, men, didn't matter. That's when you saw this sort of like fierce, like, you know, uproar and you saw, especially like the religious community really come like we, this is not Christian. This is you saw folks from the North, start driving down to be part of things. What really scares me about this moment that it's different from then is that we are now seeing those images pretty much every day and there's paralysis. And so I'm going to join you and just like, and kind of like, okay. I believe in the power of storytelling, I believe in the power of bearing witness as a way of being moved, the danger of in our current moment is how much of that is getting infiltrated by straight up lies.
We do not have the capacity as people. I read- nerd moments. It's like, there are only so many complex decisions an individual can make before it taxes the mind. Right. And so you can, you can like go to the bathroom and you can like, Oh, I'll have to put my clothes on. And all I gotta, I gotta eat, you know, but complex decisions. That is why we have governmental structures so that they can make the, the really, really thorny really stuff happened. And you can just go up, that's a social contract, right. And yet, you know, we're in this moment now where you reality, the things you are seeing with your eyes is contending with the lies being told at the highest level, not just by Trump, right. But we have an entire half of, you know, our party system that has committed to this falseness.
And so again, I come from a country that experienced dictatorship, right. We have seen this before, when state apparatus lie- when they convince, you know, through nationalistic rhetoric, going back to what you said earlier, no, this is what's really true. There's going to be a whole lot of people who are going to be like, well, that's the president, that's my Senator. That's my party. And they're saying XYZ. Oh. And by the way, here's a whole media channel invested in fabricating lies as well. And so your whole world, all of a sudden is confirming a truth that's not true. And so that for me, that's, that is a 21st century problem. That is in the last sort of five years crisis. Where, how do we combat what we see, how do we negotiate? What is, what is patently clear, right. With just a really really just aggressive effort to lie to people. I mean, look at the debate. You mentioned the debate with your family, and it's like, this man has no qualms about standing there and lying to people, right. That's tough to break. That's tough to break. It requires like as vigorous of a truth telling mission, if not considerably more, to be able to knock that out.
JOSHUA CROKE:
I’m reflecting back on my own education, I see more and more presently how much the structure of government and education were successful. And in two very specific ways, one being selling people on this notion of America's the greatest nation ever, and creating and instilling the sense of nationalism. And then to the fact that for so many people, they believe their voice doesn't actually matter. And I say this, my, my grandmother grew up in Nazi Germany, and I have conversations with her that are, you know, she's been a Democrat her whole life on like most of my family. And she says, I've never seen or been so fearful of the state of this country, but also will not allow herself to have those conversations with people and family because of how it might disrupt the family. And I mentioned a couple of weeks ago on the show about the danger and I think the harm that is caused when folks across the country have a “no politics at the dinner table” you know, agreement because of how much we're seeing the echo effect of that in, in, in so much.
Like we know, the Trump side does not have the popular vote. We knew this from 2016, right. We know that like the, I think the millennials and gen Z make up the greatest majority of potential voters in this country. And if all of those young people got together and voted, we would experience rapid and like truly a structural change that would, you know, echo into the future. I don't know if I was going to a specific point with that, but those two things, this like hyper nationalistic mindset that no one is greater than us. So we can, we can't possibly believe that there are any better ways outside of this country than what we're doing right now because we're Americans and that's dangerous.
MARIEL NOVAS:
I mean, American exceptionalism is so dangerous that we have over 200,000 people who have died from COVID because we still keep beating our chest saying we're doing a great job.
JOSHUA CROKE:
Because only 200,000 people have died.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Have y'all seen the bar graphs, there's a steep drop off after the United States,
JOSHUA CROKE:
I've had a conversation with someone. They said, well, those, those countries just don't have the access to the right data. Yeah. Like that is how deeply rooted these issues are. Yeah.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Which is why, you know, what I got, what I got from, from your, from your comment aside from, and you know, something that I want to make sure to throw out there, because I know that some people listening will hear my remarks and call them anti-American right. That is such a harmful part of what's happening right now in our space that simply critiquing power and critiquing our country has become synonymous with somehow being like against the flag. My God, who are we? The whole point of this country is that I can critique it. Punto. Punto. Right. And so when I think about, you know, this notion of like no politics at the dinner table, I would tell those folks, the fact that you have dinner is political. The fact that you are together in a house is political. And it's a privilege to be able to say, all right, we're gonna like, keep that, you know, at the door or whatever we're going to, you know, there are many of us who do not have dinner, especially right now, people trying to figure out, well, I w I was furloughed and they cut down on unemployment.
MARIEL NOVAS:
There's no COVID relief coming because Congress is broken. I have three children that, you know, how am I gonna, you know, I lived that. I remember when dinner was white rice and ketchup, and you just mix it up real good to make it taste like something. Cause that's it. I remember my dad buying like a long loaf of French bread and like a carton of eggs. And just like, literally just like eggs bread, cut it up into a bunch of pieces. Everyone gets a little sandwich. I'm like, you know, I'm like, man. And the fact that people really don't understand that this is I'm like, I don't think people like Lindsey Graham or Mitch McConnell really understand when they say like, Oh, they're, you know, they're abusing the system of unemployment. $600 is so much, some people are like living. I'm like, do you know what people, what most people are living through?
MARIEL NOVAS:
So it's wild. Right? The last thing I'll say to your remark is that, you know, what, what, what I'm seeing I'll speak from the eye is that like, this is really like a spiritual and psychological battle, as much as it is one of, sort of like tactics strategy rights, and you know it, and this is where like, again, we are not adept at engaging on that level. I know a lot of people saw Marianne Williamson's run as being gimmicky or whatever. And like, she had some moments that I was like, okay girl. But I was here for Marianne Williamson. Let's talk about spiritual death. Let's talk about that. Because when you have a white Christian party standing by while there are human rights abuses being made left, and right. That's a spiritual death that is not of Christ. I grew up in the Catholic church. I'm no longer a part of it, another podcast. Right. But I'm like, I know I, that is nowhere in the Bible. Es a no Dio.
JOSHUA CROKE:
And I have grown to become more empathetic and more spiritual. And again, I'm speaking from the eye eye position, but the more that I stopped following a guide and started truly tapping into understanding and empathy and listening and forming my own, you know, my own decisions on how to interact with the world and how to interact with others and recognizing how much otherness occurred, the more you follow scripts.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Mhm, mhm, and, you know, the unfortunate thing is, what I have noticed in my life is that when you have an identity of ‘other’, you're more able, I'm not saying that, like, it's an automatic thing. You're more able to notice otherness. You're more able to, to have that empathy ready for you to tap into if you would like, right. Because you've been in that position yourself. And, and that is why, you know, for those of us who carry the most amount of privilege. Right. and I think like your, your classic sort of like white male Christian middle-upper class, like for those of us who, who, who, who carry identity markers that allow us to have opportunity that many others do not have a disproportionate responsibility to find ways to create contact, to develop empathy, to learn about other, because the world is set up for you, unless you decide to notice, you don't have to notice.
JOSHUA CROKE:
I could talk to you forever. And I know you need to come back on the show because we at least have to follow up at least, at least, at least. Well, and we talk about a lot of heavy stuff. And so I want to, I want to end with, like, how are you finding time for joy? And like, what are you doing for, for your own like personal fulfillment and like ability to continue moving?
MARIEL NOVAS:
I come visit Josh Croke, one. So I've been spending a lot of time in meditation. I mentioned in passing that I used to consume the news voraciously, and I've sort of been just unable to in the last month and a half. What has become really clear to me sort of through like my meditative practice and a desire to, and I'm like, sorry, viewers, I'm about to get a little, a little hoooo, yes, I'm really tapping and connecting with my inner child. And thinking about sort of like my, the, the core, the core roots the scars that have been there the longest and healing them and really tapping into my, my own power, my own divinity and my own ability to shine light in the world. And again, there are endless examples that I could share of the ways in which the darkness creeps for me internally through anxiety and depression and externally through racism, sexism, et cetera, and so forth, you know, xenophobia, you know, and so to keep at Bay, both the internal darkness and the external darkness, I have really had to work hard to find the light within myself.
MARIEL NOVAS:
It has come through really, really painful, but also like, Oh, so beautiful like conversations with self and explorations into, you know, why am I this way? Like, why did I do that? Why did I respond that way? Why is that triggering? Why don't, you know, like, and just becoming really curious about myself and you know, this time of pandemic when I've been just all up in my house, all up in my room, all my students take place in my bedroom, you know, has provided ample time and space for me to be with self, as I'm sure a lot of folks listening for them as well. And so, you know, I decided my sister was very sick with COVID for a month and a half, and we almost lost her. And that was an incredibly harrowing experience. So once I was able to get past that insane trauma and like moment of crisis in my family I just committed.
I was like, I, the world is not served if I'm dead. And there are many examples of black women, women of color who are dead for whatever reason. Right. because you're shot up in your bed while you're sleeping because of a mistake, Breonna Taylor should be here. Or because of high blood pressure and stress that kills you early, or because of the disproportionate rates of maternal mortality for black women. My sister just gave birth two days ago to my niece, Sarah. And she was terrified of going into Brigham's because she had to be induced. And she had done all this research and she knows all the data. And she was like, I just want, you know, and, you know, had to talk her down and like, you're going to be fine. You're in one of the best cities you're wanting the best hospitals and, you know, your, your, your midwife is going to be there and all these things.
And it's like, so I don't, there's no dearth of examples for me of all the ways I could die. So I've had to make a choice to live and I want to live and I want to thrive. I don't want to just live bare minimum. I want to live a full life. And I'm fighting for that, not just for me, for my whole family, for my community, because that is deserved. Every human being who, you know, through whatever cosmic events ends being alive, deserves a shot to live that life. And that's what I, that's what I would hope would be our North Star.
JOSHUA CROKE:
Well, thank you for bringing so much light into the world and for talking with me and I like value and cherish every moment that we've spent together, Zoom and otherwise now in studio. But thank you so much.
MARIEL NOVAS:
Josh. This was necessary for the soul. Gracias.
XP This Episode: On Power: Drag, Dress & Disrupting Gender
JOSHUA CROKE:
Necessary for the soul indeed. What resonated with you that Mariel and I talked about? Send us an audio note to publichearing@actionbydesign.co to share your thoughts, I’d love to hear from you.
Speaking of necessary for the soul, here’s a flashback episode from our first podcast, XP This Pod, where I spoke with two people about drag, dress, and disrupting gender—one of them was actually on this past season of RuPaul’s Drag Race. I wanted to bring this episode back for you because of how it has resonated in some of my own journey as a queer, nonbinary human in this world. For many years I separated my queer identity from my professional life. Before I came out as nonbinary, my gender expression was what you’d expect any “man” to wear to work; blazer, button down shirt, tie for fancy things, etc. And while there is nothing wrong with that look, it’s very handsome in my opinion, it never really reflected who I was. And when you don’t feel confident being yourself, it impacts how you interact with the world and the impact you can have.
Well, I know you can’t see me on the other side of your speaker, but if you were to run into me now you may find me with my beard, a fierce smokey eye, and a pair of four inch kate spade heels. In this episode, you’ll hear our guest, Professor Domenick Scudera, ask the question of what drag is really? And that conversation made me consider how my old work attire was actually more of a costume than I ever realized.
DOMENICK SCUDERA: My students kept expecting me to show up in drag to class. And the first time I taught the class, I kept thinking, “No, that’s just gonna get in the way.” And after I taught the class I thought, “Well, that’s really stupid.”
JESSE HAVEA: I think that what people don’t understand, they are afraid of. And once they do understand, they’ll take a step back and realize that there was like no need to be judgemental or afraid of this, because we’re truly just trying to make people happy.
JOSHUA CROKE: How does society define who holds power? How has history shaped our perception of people and their place in society? How can people flip societal norms to reclaim power?
We’ve been thinking a lot about power, and how power is more readily given to some individuals than others. We know this is a very complex issue that crosses lines of gender, race, class and more. This two-part series is just the beginning of a larger conversation. In these episodes, we will share the stories of four people, all from different backgrounds and with different lived-experiences, telling their stories about their relationship with perception and power.
This is Experience This Podcast, I’m Joshua Croke.
JESSE HAVEA: Hi how are you, I want to say a proper hello.
MARIEL CARIKER: Hi, I’m Mariel, it’s so nice to meet you.
JOSHUA CROKE: We interviewed Jesse Havea at Therapy Bar in Midtown Manhattan.
JESSE HAVEA: You can come to my allustrious dressing room down here right by the refrigerator.
JOSHUA CROKE: Jesse uses Therapy’s space during the day to rehearse performances.
JESSE HAVEA: My given birth name is Jesse Havea, but most people know me as the allustrious Brita Filter, the anything but pure New York City drag queen.
JOSHUA CROKE: Jesse’s been performing in drag as Brita for five years, and has been doing drag full-time professionally for over three years.
JESSE HAVEA: My mom’s side of her family is like very Christian, like pentecostal. And then my dad’s side of the family is straight up mormon. My dad is from the kingdom of Tonga, in the South Pacific Islands, by like Tahiti, Fiji and Samoa. So Jesse is definitely Maui, and Brita is definitely Moana. My mom didn’t understand it. She told me I would never be a pretty woman, or a drag queen, I wouldn’t be pretty because I’m not skinny enough or I’m not like this, and I was like, little do you know I’m going to show you mom.
JOSHUA CROKE: Jesse started out as a musical performer, with aspirations for Broadway. Jesse says while Broadway is becoming more diverse now, he was often typecast for roles due to his ethnicity. He says he found these shows boring, that they didn’t utilize his skills. So, he decided to take his career into his own hands.
JESSE HAVEA: I was kind of sick of doing other people’s art. I really wanted to be my own artistic director and create things for myself and that was the biggest reason why I started drag, was because I was a full encompassing artistic director. Because I was in charge of every single thing I did. I was in charge of the music, what I was wearing, all of it.
DOMENICK SCUDERA: Contemporary drag culture is coming from a strain of drag performance that was part of gay culture from say, the 40s, 50s, 60s, underground. And has only really emerged into the mainstream in the last decades. And that is part of that moment when the gay community was gaining more power and being able to empower themselves to be part of the mainstream cultures.
JOSHUA CROKE: This is Professor Domenick Scudera. He teaches a class at Ursinus College called “The History of Drag Performance: From Shakespeare to RuPaul.” The class explores drag history, and how drag reflects and responds to culture. He asks his students, how does drag unsettle gender and societal norms through performance?
DOMENICK SCUDERA: You know, if a young boy is made fun of because he’s feminine or effeminate instead of squashing that down, sort of saying, you know what, that’s part of me and I’m going to use that to empower myself to be something of my own creation. I’m taking that part of me and making it fabulous, and strong and you can’t touch me in a way.
JOSHUA CROKE: Domenick is a drag queen himself, his drag persona is named Summer Clearance. Domenick’s husband is also a drag queen, named Thunder Showers. Summer and Thunder were created when they worked with the AIDS fund in Philadelphia. The two of them would host a “gay bingo” event in drag to raise money to support the cause.
DOMENICK SCUDERA: So there’s about 600 people playing bingo once a month, and it’s raised millions of dollars over the years. And so we started doing that, many years ago now, and did it to help our community.
JOSHUA CROKE: Although Domenick used his drag persona for charity, and he taught a class about drag, Summer never graced the classroom. Domenick was worried that by dressing in drag instead of a typical suit, he wouldn’t be taken seriously by his students.
DOMENICK SCUDERA: My students kept expecting me to show up in drag in class. And the first time I taught the class, I kept thinking, “No, that’s just gonna get in the way.”
JOSHUA CROKE: Domenick had to ask himself, why does what I wear impact the way students view me as their professor?
DOMENICK SCUDERA: And after I taught the class I thought, “Well that’s really stupid.” You know, that doesn’t make any sense. I’m not practicing what I’m preaching here, I’m trying to say that drag is empowering and can bring out parts of you that you are creating to make people see the best parts of you. So why wasn’t I allowing my students to see that?
For me personally, in terms of accepting that, I was able to articulate that, just as I have to you, to my students, but it’s one thing to say it and it’s different to actually do it.”
JOSHUA CROKE: Domenick now occasionally teaches in drag, but this issue of presentation opened up discussion about how his fellow female colleagues were treated every day. Women at his university said they had to think more carefully than their male colleagues about what they wore in the classroom.
DOMENICK SCUDERA: Now some of my male professors show up in flip flops and shorts and crumpled and you know it doesn’t make a difference, and people will accept that they already have that authority. And so your presentation really does make a difference.
I think because I am a white, male, with a certain privilege, that hadn’t occurred to me until I was sort of in this particular situation when I discussed my feelings to my colleagues, they were saying, that’s something they think about all the time.”
JESSE HAVEA: Hey, you feeling good? Welcome to the All Stars 4 viewing party! My name is Brita Filter, that’s right honey, I’m coming, I’m feeling like Farrah Moan today I’m her fat brown cousin girl.
JOSHUA CROKE: Jesse hosts viewing parties for RuPaul’s Drag Race at Boxers bar in Washington Heights every Friday night.
JESSE HAVEA: One of these days, season 25 girl, I’m aiming for it, that’s right. Rule number one, I love applause. Rule number two, it costs a lot of money to look this cheap and not wear shoes.
JOSHUA CROKE: Brita Filter has started making waves in the mainstream entertainment world. Jesse was named New York City’s 2018 Entertainer of the Year. He was on an episode of Broad City in drag. But while focusing on Brita, he didn’t give equal time to taking care of Jesse.
JESSE HAVEA: When I first started drag I was like, like, okay, I have to make this happen. And when I set my mind to something, I’m going to make it happen. Like I’m going to do it. So I kind of became a little too Brita obsessed. In a sense that everything was for Brita. I did nothing for myself. And I really had this giant downward spiral and had to check myself on numerous occasions.
JOSHUA CROKE: For Pride festivities in June, Jesse was hired by Google, Spotify, Uber and more to attend a corporate celebration in drag. Does a practice like drag, which turns the gender binary on its head, have a safe place in the current power structure of corporate settings?
JESSE HAVEA: Walking into a space like corporate America, drag is a mask, initially, I always looked at it like a mask, like I didn’t know what I was. I would put this character on and that’s how I looked it, as a character. And I think people who are in corporate America do that as well. They’re a character. They wear this suit and they’re like, “Okay, now I go to to put it on, like this is what I’m doing.” It’s very similar.
JOSHUA CROKE: Jesse says he was nervous to perform in drag in a space full of people who typically have “power” in the world of business and politics, mostly straight, white, cisgender male corporate officials. This begs the question of how can people begin to shift and change the strict rules of gender and presentation in corporate environments?
JESSE HAVEA: I think it’s important for people to challenge people’s minds by like going out and doing that in work places, and going into these spaces, these giant corporate offices, for people to have a preconceived notion of me, seeing me walk into a space, and then once they see me perform, and it’s always after they see me perform, because they’re always so afraid beforehand, but then I know what to do to warm them up.
DOMENICK SCUDERA: RuPaul says that “we’re all born naked and the rest is drag.” And in a way Judith Butler’s theories are saying something similar, that we are enacting our gender, we’re performing our gender constantly.
JOSHUA CROKE: Again, Domenick Scudera. In his class, students study the works of gender theorist Judith Butler. Butler says drag, “Mocks the expressive model of gender and the notion of true identity.”
DOMENICK SCUDERA: So, you know, what is wrong with me choosing the gender I want to perform? And that shouldn’t belittle you if I am creating what I want from me. It’s not meant to do anything negative to you.
JOSHUA CROKE: Like how Domenick channeled Summer to help raise money for the AIDS fund, Jesse has been able to use his platform as Brita to create change and visibility for the LGBTQ community.
JESSE HAVEA: I had no idea how influential my drag would be towards other people, and towards specific LGBTQ charities and homeless LGBTQ youth and our current political system and trans lives, the things that our government is taking away from them. I have a microphone in my hand every single night of the week. And there are 100 if not hundreds of people watching my show every day. And so when I say something on the mic, these people pay attention. You’re going to listen to a 6’4” man in a dress because I command the stage, but also like we have something to say.
JOSHUA CROKE: Jesse -- and Brita -- are just getting started with their work in the queer community and beyond.
JESSE HAVEA: I want to create good queer art and make people think and like tell stories. I’m a storyteller. Brita has taught me so much about performing and confidence. And to not be afraid of who I am. And the person that I am on the inside.
JOSHUA CROKE: But what if society or the people who hold power tell you that because of your experiences and your past, you shouldn’t be confident? In part two, we speak with two individuals who took stigma and labels forced upon them, and turned those negative perceptions into outlets to create meaningful change.
JOSHUA CROKE: Experience This Podcast is created and produced by Action! by Design. Action! by Design is a citizen-centered design company that helps people build better products, launch impactful campaigns, and elevate their brand. The show is hosted by me, Josh Croke, founder of Action! By Design. Our producer is Mariel Cariker. Music for this episode was created by Rob Flax. Special thanks to Boxers Washington Heights, Therapy Bar, Dylan Horn, Allie Richards, and Giuliano D’Orazio. You can find us on social media at x-p this pod. To learn more about our organization, and to see behind the scenes photos -- including Domenick in drag as Summer Clearance, and photos of us at Jesse’s show in New York -- visit our website at action by design dot co. Is there an experience or story you think we should know about? We’d love to hear from you. If you liked this episode, please consider leaving a review and telling your friends. It really helps the show. See you next week.
JESSE HAVEA: Smooth jazz is shaking.
JOSHUA CROKE: You’ve been listening to the Public Hearing Podcast (if you didn’t know already)! If you like the show, let us know — ratings and reviews are super helpful to getting our conversations to more ears.
Public Hearing is created and produced by Action! by Design. We are a community design and innovation studio helping organizations address complex challenges. From reimagining new youth justice systems to supporting strategies for creating workplace cultures of belonging, we provide design thinking facilitation and project design services that have impact.
You can find our show wherever you listen to podcasts and on WICN 90.5FM, Worcester’s NPR affiliate station. Thank you to the United Way of Central Massachusetts for supporting community conversations through podcasting and radio.
I’m your host, Joshua Croke. Our Creative Producer is Myka Papetti. Our Audio Producer is Giuliano D’Orazio. Original music by Giuliano D’Orazio. Our intern is Ellie Garfield from Clark University. Thank you to Mariel Novas for being our guest on this episode! And, from our XP This Pod feature, Jesse Havea AKA Brita Filter and Dominick Scudera — original episode produced by Mariel Cariker and music by Rob Flax.
To learn more about us, visit actionbydesign.co // Thanks for listening!
