Circles of Inclusion, Exclusion, and Influence in Worcester (A Special Podcast Roundtable Discussion)

In the wake of responses, Facebook comments, and community discussions to an article published in the Worcester Business Journal entitled “Infiltrating Worcester’s Inner Circle,” we put a call out to the community to talk with folks engaged in Worcester about their thoughts, feelings, and reactions to this article, which upset a lot of people, and broader themes of inclusion, exclusion, and influence in Worcester.

Our guests are Giselle Rivera-Flores (IG @notjustawriter), Jennifer Gaskin (IG @jenny_noire), Nicole Bell (IG @nikkilift), and Valerie Zolezzi-Wydnham (IG @valerie.zolezzi.wyndham). Hear perspectives from people who have been long-involved in Worcester who challenge the position that “you just have to keep showing up” to be included in decision-making circles and question whether these circles should even exist at all.

Hosted by Joshua Croke, Public Hearing is a show about Worcester and the pursuit of equitable, just, and joyful communities. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM, Worcester’s only NPR affiliate station, on Wednesdays at 6 PM. PublicHearing.co

Transcript for this episode

Joshua Croke (00:02):

Welcome to a special episode of Public Hearing our podcast and radio show about Worcester and the pursuit of equity, justice, and joy for our communities. I'm your host, Joshua Croke, and we're welcoming not one but four guests today to talk about power, privilege and representation in decision making circles in the city of Worcester. This is Public Hearing. Public Hearing can be found wherever you listen to podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM Worcester's only NPR affiliate station on Wednesdays at 6:00 PM. In the wake of responses, Facebook comments and community discussions to an article published in the Worcester Business Journal titled “Infiltrating Worcester's Inner Circle,” we put a call out to the community to talk with folks engaged in Worcester about their thoughts, feelings, and reactions to this article, which upset a lot of people, myself included, and broader themes of inclusion, exclusion, and influence in Worcester.

Joshua Croke (00:56):

While I'm the host of this show, I'm gonna step a bit more into my identity as a resident and someone who has lived in and been involved in Worcester for over 10 years now, and hope to hold this space for our guests to engage in thoughtful conversation about the impact and implications in this article and the greater challenges we're facing in Worcester. When it comes to decision making and representation in the City, I'm going to ask each of our guests to briefly introduce themselves and quickly highlight affiliations they want to bring into this space and any of their social locations that they would feel would be relevant to share with listeners. So Giselle welcome. And let us know a little bit about you.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (01:33):

So my name's Giselle Rivera-Flores. As far as who I am, I am from New York, born and raised in Brooklyn and I moved here 17 years ago. So Worcester has become my home away from home. So I'm very passionate about the things that happen in Worcester. I am very involved in the community. I've been part of Leadership Worcester, Startup Worcester, big proponent of the Worcester Chamber and all of the programs that they do there. I teach, digital media at the Food Entrepreneurship program at Worcester State. And I teach at Marianopolis College out in Connecticut. I am all over the place. I own a studio, which we're looking for new space, Be Studio, so you can find us on Instagram @bestudiosnow. And yeah, that's me.

Joshua Croke (02:18):

Thank you, Giselle. Jen, welcome.

Jennifer Gaskin (02:20):

Hello. My name is Jennifer Gaskin. I've been living in Worcester for 17 years also. That's interesting. I didn't know we lived here for the same amount of time. I am the founder and president of the Worcester Caribbean American Carnival Association. I'm also the co-host of “Don't Touch My Podcast” with Giselle. And I identify as a Black Caribbean American person and you know, I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts in Dorchester Fields Corner and have been here, you know, and like you said, Giselle is my second home, so it's really important to me that my children and, you know, your children have an opportunity here.

Joshua Croke (03:05):

Thank you, Jen. Nikki welcome.

Nicole Bell (03:07):

Great. Hi, I'm Nikki Bell. I am the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Living In Freedom Together, which is a survivor-led nonprofit that supports survivors of prostitution. Some things I think are important to bring to this conversation for me is that I am a person with a history of incarceration arrest. I'm a person in long-term recovery, which for me means I haven't used drugs or alcohol in almost eight years. And a survivor of many forms from gender-based violence.

Joshua Croke (03:39):

Thank you for being here, Nikki. Valerie, welcome.

Valerie Zolezzi-Wyndam (03:43):

Hi, thank you for having me. I am Valerie Zolezzi-Wyndam, and I am the founder and CEO of Promoting Good, a consulting firm that supports people and organizations in moving stated commitments to equity into action. I am a Mexican immigrant and that is an identity that is very important to me. I am a mom of two teenagers and a caretaker of my mom who now lives with us. I am a lawyer by training and so that is an identity that gives me some privilege. And at the same time, I was a social justice lawyer and a woman and so even in that privileged position, faced challenges, I come to this conversation as somebody who does diversity, equity, inclusion, and anti-racism work across the country and in Worcester. And so have a perspective of about what works, what doesn't work, who is doing the work authentically, and how this work happens in a way that is performative.

Joshua Croke (04:45):

Thank you, Valerie. And for listeners, you might be familiar with me, but not all of the things that I have done in the community. I'm Joshua Croke. I identify as a non-binary human. I am white and socialized male. So I want to acknowledge the privileges that I bring into these spaces and was raised in a conservative religious family, which is important to me because of the contrast that it has with my identity as an LGBTQ+ person. In addition to founding Action! by Design and Love Your Labels. I was a Founding Director of POW!WOW! Worcester here in the city, co-founded and ran a community based nonprofit Action Worcester that for a time was contracted to run a collaborative workspace called the Worcester Idea lab, participated in the 2015 cohort of Leadership Worcester and sit on the board of Living In Freedom Together, and the Worcester Education Collaborative and serve as a corporator for the Ecotarium, the Greater Worcester Community Foundation and the Worcester Art Museum. So we have a lot of folks here with a lot of experience with working in the ins and outs of the City. And so thank you everybody for coming to talk about a really important issue related to what I think is the false belief and I quote from the Worcester Business Journal article, “Infiltrating Worcester's Inner Circle” that you just have to keep showing up. So, Nikki do you want to kick us off with some of your thoughts in a little context about the article?

Nicole Bell (06:08):

Sure. So, you know, when I read the article another colleague of mine had shared it and it's like, yes, that's been my experience, just show up. And I read the article and it was like, wow, we're talking about these like inner circles of power, right. That people have to show up to access, right. Instead of like again, sharing power and including community in these conversations. And so it's like, you can show up and still be ignored. Right. You can show up. And, and it's like, how many times she keeps showing up beforeyou're like, this is not worth my time or energy, and I'm gonna move to another space where we're actually doing work. Right? And another component of that article that I was really challenged by it's like, first of all, like some of these spaces of power are in places that we can't even access.

Nicole Bell (06:59):

Right. Like the Worcester Club, like I can just stroll into the Worcester Club and join the meeting. Right, and also there's a lot that happens in this community where it's like, oh, we're gonna come together as a community and make decisions. Right. And they have these conversations, but decisions aren't really made at those tables, there are then additional meetings where they decide what's important and inform their decisions on their own without really listening to the voices of community. So to me, that was like a gross misrepresentation of like how it works or actually how it works for some people, cuz I'm sure that is real right for like lots of people that have social power and privilege. Right. But for folks that don't, that’s not real. Right.

Joshua Croke (07:46):

Any response. Yeah. Valerie. So,

Valerie Zolezzi-Wyndam (07:48):

So I agree, Nikki with what you said. I think the other piece that I would add I have had on occasion, the privilege of being invited into those spaces sometimes being heard. But I've also had the experience of then having other people ask me to recede that invitation that I got so that it could be offered to somebody else who they would've preferred to be in that space. And so I think it's really complicated. Right. And even when you sort of are able to succeed in getting yourself a seat at that table there are others who see that you've gotten that seat and don't believe that you belong there and that somehow right, as a person of color, as a woman, right that I should offer that opportunity up to somebody else. And so, you know, that is also a really difficult thing for folks who are able to make it into that room. And it indicates, I think to me, how complicated all of this is, right? So, no, it's not just about being there or showing up, but even when you show up and maybe are invited, are you really a full participant with power in that space? And I think often it's not the case.

Jennifer Gaskin (09:10):

And then also it's showing up and are you comfortable in that space? Right, because I feel like a lot of times I show up in spaces and I'm the only one that looks like me and whether that's being a female, whether that's being a black female, whether that's being a black person, et cetera, I'm the only one that looks like me. And if I try be out in my interests or in the interest of the people that I feel like I represent, it's almost looked at like, oh God, here she comes again. Or, oh God, you know, you guys are always complaining. Or, you know, it's taken as more of a nuisance than a valued input.

Joshua Croke (10:00):

And there's this fragility of once you access these spaces of, you know, speaking from some of my experience of like the, once you say something disagreeable, how easy it is for you to become excluded from those spaces. And that's one of the things that really set me off about this article specifically was like, I've joined these spaces. And when I was much more in the space of sitting in a lot of ignorance and also like, yes, I'm pushing like the economic development strategy for the city growth, et cetera, and not being really aware of a lot of the other like challenges and the perspectives of how we grow as a community. Once I started coming into that knowledge, the spaces that I was invited to and actively asked to participate, started diminishing and decreasing. And I recognized that I was in those spaces coming from, you know, positions of privilege and also tokenization of like, oh, Hey, there's like a queer person who is involved in the city. Let's get them on all these like boards and things. But once they start advocating for the things that queer people in the community are asking for, they were uncomfortable.

Jennifer Gaskin (11:12):

Yeah.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (11:13):

I'd have to agree. But also like just going back to the article itself and the tone that it was written in, it's very arrogant. It comes across as the, it proposes two problems. One it proves that there is this inner circle that runs the city, right which is the biggest problem because that then proves that your voice is actually not heard because everything that happens, happens in these rooms that you are excluded from. So even if they let you in, there's this cohort of individuals that do what they want as they want, it doesn't really matter. Right. There's that piece. Then there's the piece of having us to quote unquote infiltrate, which for me has a very negative connotation on who I am, because you're telling me that as a person, I must go into a space forcefully in a space that does not want me there.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (12:06):

So the title itself, when I think I opened this article, I was just like blown away because they said, I'm sorry, infiltrate the inner circle. You're proving two problems. You're telling me that I have to go into a space that I already am not supposed to be there. And then in fact that you're also proving the point that these people do exist. That Worcester is ran the way exactly everyone has said it's run for years and years and years and all these programs and these efforts that we do either go unheard. They go unnoticed or do they bypass until they need a moment for them to have like some poster that says diversity or welcome to the most cultural city in the world. And then you can't even get into a room. I mean, I don't remember who it was, who wrote who mentioned in the article, but one of the gentlemen who stated that he has been hosting these events since 1980.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (12:53):

Okay. I'm 37. Okay. So since 1980 and he only has 24 participants since 1980 says in the article that he doesn't actually exclude anyone, but he does try to fly under the radar. So for me, it's like, okay. So are you trying openly to an involve other individuals? Or are you truly saying we exist, but we really try to keep this as low-key as possible. So what kind of invitation could you possibly hand out if you're saying you're trying to be as low-key as possible? It's just it's counterproductive. The entire article is arrogant. The people they interviewed were arrogant. Just, I'm kind of disgusted by it all.

Joshua Croke (13:35):

I mean, and I want to quote something in the article because it's related to the Economic Development Coordinating Council and the article highlights and, and this is something, and I want to just name that we have like a seriously underfunded, local media scene in Worcester which is part of a problem that is like getting folks who do other things and are not invested in like authentic research and have like the capacity to like really engage people and like developing an article. Cuz when I look at a table and an article that says groups with a mission to advance Worcester and there are four groups listed, that's ridiculous. I just get blown away. Right. And the quote that I wanted to raise was really a description of the economic development coordinating council, which is stated to bring together the city's government and business power brokers in a Friday morning meeting at City Hall. And so there's just like this acknowledgement of power and like who that group is defining, holds the power. And it is a invite-only space.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (14:34):

But if you remember just recently or maybe like over the, I think it was the winter, maybe in the fall, there was another article and it was about the power brokers of Worcester and it was all white male. I mean, I was blown away because I thought of individuals like us that are literally changing things, moving things forward on a grassroots level with no funding, with no additional money from any sort of city council or any funds from the city or from the state. And here we are pushing forward and you are still talking about Cliff who owns Palladium, like, come on, like at what point are we going to say what's the priority in Worcester? And I think that's what's really important is that they're showcasing this imagery through that arrogant article of what they want Worcester to be. I think that that to me resonates a lot because what Worcester is, is not what's represented in that room or any of those rooms, it's something very organic. It's something very underground. It's something that represents all of us in a big capacity and for them to limit us and say, whatever's gonna happen, happens in these rooms only is kind of like telling us that it's just not gonna happen pretty much. That's how I, how I understood it.

Jennifer Gaskin (15:47):

Well, even with the, with the wording, like you said about infiltrate. Infiltrate to me, like you said, either means I'm coming in forcefully or it means that I'm conforming or hiding my true identity to fit into a space. That's what infiltrate means to me. So, and then the fact that again, inner circle, I mean, are we in high school? Cool. Why is there a inner circle? Like it doesn't,like you said, Worcester is all of us in this room and the people like us that are actually out here doing the work. Worcester is where you can walk around as a queer, non-binary person and have support and be welcomed in the community that's Worcester, right? That's, you know, Worcester’s where you can do your, your social justice and equity work and really support and make changes. Worcester is where we can talk openly about prostitution and how do we support women and men and children from coming out of these kind of situations, right? Worcester is a place where we can go out in the middle of Main Street and have a party and celebrate our Caribbean culture. That's Worcester. Worcester is not the, the power brokers and it’s not an inner circle, I want to be in

Giselle Rivera-Flores (17:11):

Agreed.

Valerie Zolezzi-Wyndam (17:12):

And I think we are leaving. I mean, I think that the problem with that, with the mindset, right, that a few, I mean, I am sure really smart, prepared people, right. That they alone can solve the complex problems that our society has. Just leaves so much opportunity on the table. Right. Worcester has big problems and also really great opportunities. But if we're only allowing sort of a small group of people to make those, to decide the future, then we’re leaving on the table, sort of all of the power and creativity, right. And expertise of, you know, the many hundreds of thousands of people who live here. And so it's it's not a solution that's gonna get us very far. And I think it illustrates to me how people who have had power for a long time, maybe don't realize, or maybe they do. I don't know. Right. That we're a part we're supposed to be a participatory democracy and that means that everybody's opinion and everybody's vote matters equally and when we allow these these conversations or these decisions to happen in private, you're actually acting in a way that doesn't support democracy. And I think that's a really big problem.

Nicole Bell (18:52):

I think too, when we're talking about infiltrating or trying to get into those spaces, it's like, you know, I looked at the cover of that article too. And it's like, every article face general has one of their faces on the cover. Right. It's like all of these like wealthy, powerful, privileged people, patting each other on the back, giving each other awards. And that's not even really where the work is happening in this community. As we talk, as people are mentioning and it's like you show up in these spaces and it's like, I've stopped even attempting to show up, cuz I don't wanna be there number one, like I feel gross in those spaces. Right. I'm treated like in this like very like I don't know, like paternalistic gross way. Right. And it's like, if you say something that they don't like, they remind you, it's like, oh, well I gave you $300 to fund a picnic.

Nicole Bell (19:44):

You had one time and it's like, you sound like every sex buyer I've ever encountered in my life. Right. Like I gave you money so be quiet. Right. And it's like that power dynamic of like, you're not allowed to challenge anything or you will go unfunded, if you speak up, like you're an outcast. And it's like, at some point it's like, you don't even wanna be there. Right. So it's like, you go back on the ground and you organize with your community and you do the work, but it's not right. That again, here are these people with access and power and privilege and then the people on the ground doing the work without any funding without any money. And it's like, you know, I can’t speak for us, but it's like, all of our funding comes from outside this community, like all of it, like and that that's, it's disappointing, right. That like, you know, and I know a lot of others are in that kind of same space. If you speak up, you are like pushed out.

Joshua Croke (20:43):

And I think something that resonates there with me a lot is depending on like the circles, some of the circles, if we're defining them that way, that we sit in the different work that we all do, there is so much like respect and appreciation for the organizing that goes on in Worcester, like, and the collaborations that happen across organizations and individuals, and it is often exclusionary to these like leader and power structures. Right? It's like this group of people came together because they were passionate about this issue. They have been volunteering their time for the past two years to do this work. And this is the outcome. And then a year and a half into their work, they got some funding. Right. And then the, you know, as we know, there's like a challenge I could talk for a whole hour about the nonprofit industrial complex and like dismantling harmful systems of how we control social movements based on what rich people decide to give their money to.

Joshua Croke (21:40):

Right. And like there is work being done in our, you know, philanthropic spaces, I think to change how money is going out into the community. There is a lot of work that needs to be done there. But I think if city officials and people who are representing our communities are listening, I hope that folks really look at leadership as stewardship and not holding power. Right? How do we take these positions and distribute that what this seat means to more people in the community and how be like, truly become stewards of the communities like wants needs and get them the resources that they need. Because doing that work and working with communities most impacted by various social issues, the people that I work with and like facilitate conversations with they always 100% of the time hold the answers to what they need. 100 percent. And I think that is very often dismissed, especially when folks come from historically excluded populations.

Jennifer Gaskin (22:36):

And to kind of you know, align it to an experience that I've had. I spoke out on a panel it was the Business of Cannabis and it was at the DCU Center and it was, I believe it was actually put on by the Worcester Business Journal. And I was on the panel. I was the only black woman on the panel. My husband and my son's girlfriend are in the audience. My husband's sitting like directly in front of me. So we're having a conversation and somebody raises their hand, it's a black person. And they say, you know, how do I get into this business of cannabis? Right. And there is a white gentleman next to me. He actually owns a dispensary in Worcester. He's all in his nice suit. And he says, well, you know, people come here for an interview and they're dressed like drug dealers.

Joshua Croke (23:21):

Oh my God

Jennifer Gaskin (23:21):

And what made it even worse was that he's looking my husband dead in the face, who's sitting right in the front room. I think he had on like a hoodie and jeans and a pair of Timberlands or something like that. And he's like, they just come dressed up drug dealers. And I'm like, first of all, if we really wanna get technical, you sell cannabis. So I'm sorry, like hello. Number two, every drug dealer that I've ever seen in a movie is wearing a suit. Looks like you. And it was just, he didn't even have a concept. And, everything that he said was, you know, you need money to get into this and it's money and it's money and it's money. And here’s this industry that's supposed to be repairing the damage that they did to people in the war on drugs and who was the most affected by the war on drugs? Black and brown people. And here I am sitting next to this white man with his money in his business suit, who is telling me, or this crowd that they can't show up as themselves.

Jennifer Gaskin (24:43):

Like the reason he could sit there, it's because of the people that look like that in that room that continued to grow and get arrested and put in jail for this plant that you're now selling in the store that looks like the apple store

Joshua Croke (25:00):

And making millions

Jennifer Gaskin (25:02):

Making millions of dollars and making millions of dollars. And, you know, the city of Worcester has the most licenses for marijuana establishments in Massachusetts. I believe. So you have three, I believe in the city that have owners of color. So, whereas and I, you know, I would almost guess that those were kind of just given out as concessions so that they could say they met some criteria. Right. So what does that really say about this idea of showing up or this idea of all you have to do is, you know, hard word, pull up your booth. Like that's not true.

Joshua Croke (25:54):

And like, it's, what are you showing up with,

Jennifer Gaskin (25:57):

Right. Is one of the questions now you're telling you right now, you're telling me, I have to show up in a way that you accept. I have to show up in a way that you accept, I have to behave how you want me to behave. And that's where I said, infiltrating to me means you must fit in this box of acceptability for this particular circle in order for you to get anywhere. And then what does that really do for you or do for your community? It does nothing because now you have to conform to what they are, which means that you're not doing the real work that needs to be done.

Nicole Bell (26:34):

And there's this like performative inclusion too, right. Where it's like, oh, everybody's welcome. You're all welcome at the table. But then,

Jennifer Gaskin (26:40):

I'm gonna make you miserable.

Nicole Bell (26:43):

Right, you don't come back. Or I'm just gonna pretend like I value what you're saying or talking about. Right, and then everybody like pats themselves on the back for having a survivor or woman of color or, you know, somebody in the room. Right and it's like one in the room with, you know, 50 white guys or other women that are carrying water for the patriarchy. Right, so it's like, how do you even, so much of it is performative. And even I would say that those inner circles that they're talking about, like there's even another inner circle behind that, that actually makes a decision. Right. So it's like out of those 24 people, there's probably another six that meet behind that like really hold power that makes the decisions. Right. And there's so many groups in the city that it is so performative.

Nicole Bell (27:28):

It's like, everybody's welcome. Can I remember attending this group that was talking about creating like a police response to mental health and we met for months. Right. and the whole goal was to decide what type of response would work for our city. And they had already decided, they had already made the decision. And so it's like, you're asking us all to show up and contribute our time in this discussion and then you find out, you've already decided, I was like, then why have I been here this whole time? You've been like, what was the point of all of this? Right. So you could pretend that like, community voices were included in this, and again, the people that made the decisions made it based on who they liked and knew. Right, and I was like, I'm not gonna like name the organization, but just so you know, like for someone that's access services there, it's awful and it's disgusting. And you're about to give them a bunch more money to continue to harm people like me and people aren't gonna get the services and supports they need

Giselle Rivera-Flores (28:29):

I have to say, that's true in that article right there. Basically says it.

Joshua Croke (28:34):

Nepotism, literally in the article.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (28:36):

Yeah. They quote Michael Bobbitt, they say, well, you know, what he said was that he worked, you know, the best way to build your business or build or whatever it is, your artistry is to understand that people work with people that they know. And that has to be the most disgusting model I've ever heard. Yes. Do we get along and do we create these groups and collaborations that we can then work and grow, but saying it in that context means that there's an exclusion. So if I don't know you and you could be the best hire, it means that you won't get the job because I don't know you, I don't know you personally, I don't know what kind of dog you have. I don't know where you live. I don't know what part of the city you come from. And I think that that's a problem. I mean, also to your point, Nikki is that the three of us went to this is a couple years ago. Do you remember the whole, there was like the way finders.

Nicole Bell (29:28):

Yes.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (29:29):

Yeah. Do you remember that? And we, I remember us showing up and we were in the back and we were like, what is happening here? But it was to prove the point that decisions were already made. We went in with the idea that, oh, we're gonna talk about what this way-finder will look like and where they will be placed. And they sat there and said, no, no, no. They literally told us to be quiet. I remember that. Like, no, that's not what we're doing. We are here to just show you where they're going, where they're going. And we were like, wait, what? And they were like, this decision was made months ago. Do you remember that? And months and years ago, at what point were you going to say that to the rest of us? And if you look, the way-finders are the least useful thing in the city.

Joshua Croke (30:10):

Well, and this is, I think

Giselle Rivera-Flores (30:11):

They say nothing. They tell you you’re in Main South, I got that.

Joshua Croke (30:15):

And the thing that's challenging and to make and draw a comparison and expand on that, Giselle is the way-finding project was done, and now at this point, 15 years ago, the city engaged a company to develop a process, to help people primarily tourists, navigate the city who weren't comfortable or knowing Worcester. So let's put up these pillars that say, you know, downtown and main south, and like all these different things, they spent like $3 million on that project. And then didn't have the money to develop and build out these markers in the city until 10 years later, 10 years later, they bring out the plans, blow, blow off the dust

Jennifer Gaskin (30:58):

And say, nothing's changed. Nothing's changed

Joshua Croke (31:00):

Nothing is changed. They're so like, this is what we're building and it was, so it was so specifically decided, to Giselle's point, that when we said, well, actually there's a lot of work going on right now. And that should say downtown and theater district. And they're like, I don't know if we can make that change, you know, on these pillars. And I think one of the challenges here, and I wanna also talk some of the solutions that we propose and like what community advocates are saying, like, this is actually what needs to be done, because I think what we find a lot in the city is like people complain a lot and they don't offer any solutions. I once, and I will not name the elected official, but I was one time introduced to this person that I didn't know, by an elected official in our city saying this to Josh Croke, they are the one who always asking me to do things that the city can't do. And that was our introduction.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (31:49):

Right out

Joshua Croke (31:49):

And that was our introduction. And I said, hi, yes and so anyways, can you do this thing? But, no, this is like the challenge. And so I'd love to open for some conversation of like, we have some people's ears, like what should we be advocating for and how are government and how our participatory democracy should really look to function in a way that best supports all the residents and all of the incredibly diverse people that are representative of this and in the city.

Jennifer Gaskin (32:17):

Well, first and foremost, I think that you have to get people who are actually committed to that. Right? Like we, we have a police chief who has publicly said that there's no racism in the police force. If there's more than five people in the room, you can't say there's no racism. Let's just keep that. Like you can't account for every single person in your organization and say, there's no racism. So first of all, we have to get people in power who truly are willing and able to make a change. And it can't be, you know, we had Ms. Stephanie Williams as the Chief Diversity Officer, and then everybody says, oh, I don't know why she left. I really liked working. Well, guess what? I don't think she liked working with you because she wasn't able to do anything. She didn't have any power.

Jennifer Gaskin (33:13):

Like, if you're gonna have a chief diversity officer, then that person needs to have the power to make change. And I think that that was the goal of having her sit on the executive team, but obviously it didn't come to fruition. So really it's about making those people who are leading the key organizations, the key infrastructure to the city, being people who are open and understand the need for change and how to engage in the community. It's electing city counselors that actually wanna know and go into their community and really understand the needs of their community and advocate for those needs. So it's really getting the right voices in the room and hearing those voices and taking action for change.

Valerie Zolezzi-Wyndam (34:03):

Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, the other piece of it is that everyone has to actually commit to change their behaviors, their policies, their practices, right. And so you could hire, you know, a new police chief or a new person and in another role, right who was committed, but if the sort of, if the city leadership isn't actually committed to changing their behaviors, then even the best person in that role isn't gonna succeed. And then I think what I would add sort of as a third thing to what you just shared is that there also needs to be constant public pressure. Right. And so for folks listening, right? Like our job is to make sure that we are speaking to the concerns right. Of how decisions are being made, right. What communities aren't being heard because that public, you know, the fact that we're having this conversation right, is because the was some pressure. And so that pressure from the community has to be constant to hold people in power accountable.

Joshua Croke (35:09):

And I think one thing for listeners who may or may not be familiar, Worcester in our last municipal election, had about a 12 to 13% turn out of voters, of registered voters who are coming out and, and participate in our local elections. And I also wanna name that historic and present structural barriers that limit people's ability to access, voting, and feel that they are truly heard and are able to influence is also very present. Right. And so like, how do we get more folks engaged in the process of voting and also, I've, you know, championed this in, on the show before, I would love for folks to gather around and advocate for a citizen, like advisory, like committee to review the charter, right? Like, let's do a charter review, let's look at how our system of government is structured. And I think, you know, regardless of who is in the chair of the city manager, right.

Joshua Croke (36:02):

That is a non-elected leadership position for our city. Right. and just quickly for, for listeners who might not be as familiar with like the Worcester structure. We have elected counselors, we have six large city counselors and five that represent districts in the Worcester community, that body the mayor of our city is an elected at large city counselor. Some refer to our form of government as a weak mayor form of government because he actually sits, or that role actually sits as a city counselor and not in charge of the things that the city manager is, which is hiring, firing, setting strategic priorities, which is the responsibility of the city council. But we have part-time city council. All of these people have to have the privilege to have full-time jobs and do this in addition. And so there is just a variety of reasons why they're also strapped with their time availability to really represent and get into their communities.

Joshua Croke (37:00):

So really how do we look at changing our system of government to best reflect the needs of the people? I'm a big believer in public participatory government. So budgeting processes you know a tell one of our district city, five counselors shared with us on the show, the budget as a moral document. And that has so resonated with me. It's like you think that people stand behind podiums and make commitments to diversity, equity and inclusion, and then how do we hold them accountable? Right. Like, look at the policies, Valerie, as you're mentioning, look at the practices, look at the budget, right? What are we spending money on when we hire a chief diversity officer with no support staff who's supposed to do internal review and organization, as well as be the face of diversity for the city, how is one person able to do that for a government of 200,000, you know, residents?

Giselle Rivera-Flores (37:50):

In addition? Sorry, I was gonna say, in addition to that she was also the least paid. She was at the bottom bracket of the, you know, the income earned out of the group at city hall. So you had other individuals that weren't in positions for change per se, staff members that actually gained, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50, more grand than she did. So I think that don't get me started on the wage gap, but to be honest, I think that that proof in the hiring process in where their priorities are, if you're hiring someone that is supposed to change and go about these plans, that you just don't know how to do, you need an expert in that area, then you create all these barriers and, and brackets for them to do that. And then on top of them, you kind of insult them and pay them at the bottom of the barrel.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (38:40):

What do you expect you're gonna get, you know, I feel like that it just doesn't make sense from the very beginning of that process. But I think we need two things. One, I think a hundred percent transparency needs to be done. Like you're saying, you know, we need to hold people accountable and it's not just locally, it's on a gross scale on everything that we do. I think that, you know, us as a society we've become like large consumers of media and just all of these things that I think that sometimes we're just so exhausted of it, all that we can't really participate in the ways that we would like to. So I think that having more transparency, I mean, look at how the economic relief fund, right, we were supposed to get on a national federal level.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (39:21):

These, transparency papers telling us which businesses were approved, which businesses did not get approved. We've never gotten that. And in fact, we probably will never get that. And that was promised as part of the, you know, the income the economic relief fund. So I think that not only do we need transparency, but I think we need to make things simpler. I think that for some odd reason, government tends to overcomplicate. And I don't know if that's a form of trying to misinform individuals or get them exhausted from, you know, or demotivated from trying to attempt to do good work. But because I think that some of these processes just don't make sense. I mean, even as a business individual, as an entrepreneur myself, I've always steered other individuals to the resources in the city that are often closed behind doors that people never even knew existed there.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (40:11):

This is not information that's broadly broadcasted. This is not information that's out there and easily accessible. So I think that making that accessible, making sure that people understand, not everybody lives on Instagram and Facebook. I know we're in 2022, there are individuals that don't speak English in our community that don't do technology in our community and what, they're lesser than because they don't participate in the way you want them to? So I think that making things simple will address a lot of the situations, and to your point, I know you've talked to me about that. You know, having a citizen board, I think that's fantastic. But on top of that, having like, almost like a brand ambassador, if you will, for communities, right. If we could gather individuals of main south, you know, main south, let's say it's predominantly, there's a lot of Vietnamese people.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (40:55):

There's a lot of Hispanic people. So we pull them and we have representatives from our community, not just from city council, right? Cuz they’re brown and the residents are brown. And so for some odd reason, they think that just connects having people that are there to actually address these needs and say, listen, this is what they're looking for in this small bracket. And then in this little neighborhood, this is what they're looking for. And maybe there's lights that are not, you know, that need to go up here. I think kind of breaking things up as you will, just like you would a business and making those tasks very achievable, gets you a lot further in your progress. I mean, but when we talk about problems, they talk about it in a big way where they're like, we just can't do that.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (41:37):

It's almost impossible to do. It's such a big task, but every task is big when we talk about government. But if we can break it down into simpler tasks, I'm on board for giving them a productivity lesson. Like we can do this, like bring me on. But, I think that it's the best way to do it, transparency. bringing on the citizens board getting some quote unquote brand ambassadors, if you will and making sure that people are heard and not pushed to the side because they don't participate in the way that they would like us to participate in.

Joshua Croke (42:08):

And compensating people for their labor.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (42:09):

Oh, a hundred percent. Oh my God, don’t even get me started Josh.

Nicole Bell (42:12):

I'm also just gonna add, you know, like a citizen advisory board is like important. Right. But like our city government doesn't actually listen to our community. I mean, I think about like the turnout that like came up when we were talking about like increasing the police budget, right. Like people were calling in from everywhere. Right. It is because, and I believe that had like, there was like some motivation really at that time. And if it wasn't virtual, that room would've been packed with people over and over and over again, what did they do? They increased the police budget, right. When you look at like priorities of this city, right. It's like here, we have a police chief saying, there's no racism. Right. We give him more money. Right. There's no accountability. We have public health right.

Nicole Bell (43:00):

In the middle of the global health pandemic that is most impacting black and brown communities, and marginalized communities. And we have a person on our board of health that is like speaking up and challenging things. We get rid of him and give more money to the police. Right. So like we did exactly the opposite of what everybody in our community was calling for. Right. And so I think those like boards are important, but like we often like create these boards and it's like, they, these boards are to give recommendations, but then they get the recommendations are not even a real consideration. Right. It's again, very performative. Right and so how do we get our government to actually work for us? How do we get rid of these, you know, monsters, let's be council that just support everything that the police want. Right. And mean there are people that have been on city council forever and like, no matter what comes up, they're like, yes, we support the police. Yes, we support the police. And it's like, what is happening here? How do we get a government that works for us? Right? Because that is what is supposed to be happening. But doesn't right. It doesn't happen

Giselle Rivera-Flores (44:18):

In our, that goes back to voting.

Jennifer Gaskin (44:20):

But, I was just gonna say, it goes back to what you said with the 12%, 13% showing up to the polls. You know what I say to people is like, you can't just show up to vote for the president and vote to legalize weed. Like you gotta show up for your local elections because that is what controls what happens in your life every single day when you walk out the door. So if we are showing up, like we showed up on that city council meeting to go to the polls, then that means that we're gonna, if you continue to support the police, when we are saying, there's a problem here, or you don't want to acknowledge when, when the, the border health says that racism is a public health issue if you don't wanna acknowledge that when you come up for reelection, we're gonna vote you out.

Jennifer Gaskin (45:03):

That has to be the threat. That's how you hold city council accountable. And then, like you said, they appoint the city manager, which is literally the person who runs the city. Right. And he it's an appointed position. So if you, if we show up and put the right people in city council, then you get the right person as the city manager. And then that person is able to hold each. And every department accountable are, you know, making the changes, breaking the barriers, do doing the work. But if we are not showing up, that's where we like this article hospital is showing up. That's where we need to show up is at the polls. And, you know, at the city council meeting, let them know we're not happy. And if you are not gonna make the right choices, then we’re gonna vote you out. You you know, that's where we have to show up. It's not showing up to the inner circle because that shouldn't even be a thing. It's showing up and making our voices heard where it counts.

Valerie Zolezzi-Wyndam (46:03):

But I think it's also, so I love that. And it's also like just doing what we wanna do. Right, right. And creating, creating the events. Right. sort of creating the businesses that we want, creating the, I'm not saying that I want to replicate these circles. Right. But we just need a, we need to not infiltrate. We need to just do our own work in our own communities and demonstrate our strength. Because, because that, those circles that exist right. Shouldn't exist, period. So it's not about creating new ones so that we win the circle race. Right. it's about everyone in the community being able to, to have a voice and do what they want right. And thrive.

Jennifer Gaskin (46:46):

No, AB absolutely.

Joshua Croke (46:47):

Absolutely. And I think when we run organizations or groups or coalitions as to transparent bodies, where information is accessible, that allows for more collaboration across groups with varied and intersecting interests. Right. And that's what I think is, you know, I'm, I'm always looking at how technology can benefit growth in our society while also looking at how do we dismantle the barriers of access that people have, right? The pandemic exposed that so many of our communities have not had access to the internet or technology and devices. You know, I've having conversations with people who are like, I'm job hunting, but I don't have internet or a computer at home. So I have to take a bus 40 minutes across town to go to the library, log in a computer, work there for an hour or two print out, some materials, try and get a, you know, application filled out, take the bus back, you know, something that I have the privilege of looking at on my phone, on, you know, my Uber to wherever it is, right?

Joshua Croke (47:44):

Like there are barriers there and how can we leverage technology as a mechanism to help expose more information and like allow us to hold our city accountable? Because when we're talking about like lack of transparency as well, we have a really difficult time. And I'll talk specifically about like my work in like the education space, accessing data that should be publicly accessible so that we can say, look, this is who is being disciplined in our schools. Those kids are being suspended and they're being put into our juvenile detention centers. And this is what the, you know, breakdown of those folks identity looks like this is an issue, right? Like you can't stand behind. We don't have racism in our schools or in our police force when we can point to, you know, very real data and information that is often to, I'm trying to be clouded by the quote powers it be.

Jennifer Gaskin (48:33):

No. And the thing you, you mentioned in the beginning about, in your intro about being a formerly incarcerated person, my husband's a formerly incarcerated person. And until I think we were probably married about three or four years before, I've he realized he could vote. I'm like, babe, you can vote. And he's like, what do you mean? I'm a convicted, but I said, you can vote once you do your time, you serve your time. You, you can vote. And he didn't know that. And that there's so many people that I encounter that don't know that they think because they they're convicted felon that they cannot vote. You can absolutely vote. That's another way that, you know, there's barriers put up for people is that they, they give people these ideas that they're not welcome, or they don't have the power to do things when you actually do have the power to do things.

Jennifer Gaskin (49:25):

Or, you know, like we were talking about being in the room and being the only person in the room. And then, you know, they make you uncomfortable in the room, right. It's like, oh, wow, look, you're so articulate. Can I touch your, your hair? Can I touch it? Like, no, no, no, you can't touch my hair. And I, of course I know how to speak English. Right. like you, you make it so uncomfortable for the person in the room. It's like, like you were saying earlier, it's like, nah like I don't even wanna be in the room because you, you don't, you make me feel so uncomfortable. So like you said, it's, it's creating our own space where we can be comfortable and we can do the work. But like you, you know, it's

Giselle Rivera-Flores (50:04):

It's yeah. And it's, it's hard because one feeds the other, right. We, I feel like Jen does a lot of grassroots work. I do a lot of grassroots work. You guys probably do you a lot of grassroots work. It's 3, 4, 10 times harder to do that. When you're sitting on money, that's being sent over to the same four institutions in the city, you know, like, so for me, it's like, yes, I'm big believer. Let's empower our people. Let's, let's move the conversation forward. Let's give our people the tools that we need in order to be successful. Because I think that's how for one, you stop gentrification, you stop the take over neighborhoods, right? You empower those people within those neighborhoods to understand that they're valuable that they have self worth and that they have talents that they can, you know, turn into a business or whatever the case may be. However, how do we go about that space?

Giselle Rivera-Flores (50:50):

When all the money sits away, locked away in a vote for a P you know, a ballpark that excludes black and brown people because of prices or X, Y, Z, or lights under a bridge, you know, recently, because that's activating a space to clear out homelessness. Everything they do in the city is a bandaid to a problem opposed to solving the issue itself. Let's talk about homelessness. Let's not put up lights like this is New York city, because I'm from New York, there's homeless people living right in times square, right underneath the ball drop on new year's Eve. Well, and it

Nicole Bell (51:22):

Doesn't

Giselle Rivera-Flores (51:22):

Change anything with their mattress. It does not make a change.

Joshua Croke (51:25):

It shows a lack of priority to right. Actually addressing these issues, you know, and, and Nicky, I know one of the things that you're a big advocate for is like housing first, right? Like getting people housing and our upcoming season, which is gonna be airing after this episode is all about the American Rescue Plan Act dollars that are coming into the city ARPA, which is about $146 million coming into the city of wor. And I think right now there's 12.5 million earmark for housing. And it's the number one thing for multiple groups and city led surveys as to what our community feels that we need most. And I'm gonna be diving more into the budgets, but 12.5 million to address homelessness out of a 146 million budget is, might be a little suspect to me, if that is our community's leading priority. And like the, the impact that that would have on so many other things, right. If we address housing and we have about two minutes last, so, Nikki, I don't know if you wanna say something related to that, but

Nicole Bell (52:23):

I did just wanna say, like, you know, when we're talking about like access and like making people feel included and like they can move and help create system change. It's like driving people out from under a bridge that are experiencing homelessness by putting fluorescent lights. Does it really make them feel welcomed in our community, and like their voice can drive change. Right? Like you talked about your husband, not knowing that he could vote. When he came out. I also felt for a real, a long time, like nobody cared what I had to say. Right. Because that's how I was treated day after day after day after day. And that's how many other people in our community are treated. So, you know, not like there are so many barriers to like, it's, it's not as simple as just, I think empowering communities, like it's like show up at our table and we'll give you to $25 Walmart gift card. Cuz we value your voice. And it's like, does anybody else live on Walmart gift cards? Because like, I don't certainly not 25.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (53:19):

OK. Right.

Nicole Bell (53:19):

But that's how we treat people experience homelessness, but say we want their voices to, to create change. It's like, it's gross. I, I don't have another word for it.

Valerie Zolezzi-Wyndam (53:30):

And I think it's that our it's that leadership doesn't understand what acting with equity means. Right. And so to get back to the housing piece, right. Like I, I'm not opposed to development. Right, right. But every time you up a unit you have to think about that. Somebody's gonna be displaced. And so you need to have a strategy to house, both of those people. And I think we are only ever thinking about how we house that one person and then we're creating another problem for ourselves. And so our leadership needs to start realizing right that before they make decision, they need a center equity

Giselle Rivera-Flores (54:07):

And maybe not using affordable housing with low income housing interchangeably, because the two are not the same. Correct?

Joshua Croke (54:13):

Exactly.

Giselle Rivera-Flores (54:14):

That's because they think that people are very confused. You see it on Facebook, you see it on commentaries. They think that affordable housing means social, you know, section eight and low income. No means it does not. It means if you make less than 140 grand year, you'll give you 400 bucks off your rent, but you're paying very close to mark. You may not be paying two grand. You might be paying 1700. That is not livable for a family. That's, you know, low income. So I think that the vernacular needs to change too, because that comes from city council that comes from the government that comes down. It's almost like a business, right? If your culture appears toxic, your employee's are gonna be toxic. They're gonna treat your customers toxically. Like it's just a whole culture. If it comes from up there and they educate the people in the city properly, and they go through the process that they have to, then most of us would feel more comfortable about where are they gonna spend this money? But all of us are kind of like, where are they gonna spend this money? You know, because we know where it's going and it's not going to low income.

Joshua Croke (55:06):

And I think we're at time I could talk to you all for

Giselle Rivera-Flores (55:10):

Multiple. We're gonna move in

Speaker 6 (55:11):

Here. Yeah.

Joshua Croke (55:12):

Yeah. We need to do much more of this. And so appreciate all of your voices and the work that you are all doing for listeners. Thank you for listening to Public Hearing our podcast and radio show that airs on Wednesdays at six on WICN 90.5 FM Worcester’s only NPR affiliate station and can be heard wherever you listen to podcasts. If you have questions, comments, ideas about things that we talked about today, or other things that we should highlight on the show, reach out to us @publichearing.co I'm your host, Joshua Croke. Our audio producer is Giuliano D'Orazio, who also made our show music. Thank you to Molly Gammon and Kellee Kosiorek who also support the production of the show. The work continues Worcester, and as always, thank you for listening.