Building community wealth with Jennifer Gaskin
In this episode of Public Hearing, Josh talks with Jennifer Gaskin; founder of the Worcester Caribbean American Carnival Association (WCACA) and a moderator for Mutual Aid Worcester on Facebook. Jen also serves on the Worcester Redevelopment Authority. Jen and Josh talk about building community wealth, residents supporting residents, and more.
Listen to Public Hearing wherever you get your podcasts and on WICN 90.5FM, Worcester’s NPR affiliate station. And, while we celebrate women all year round, our guests for the month of March are all women who live, influence, and/or impact the City of Worcester, MA. Learn more about our show at PublicHearing.co
Transcript for this episode
Joshua Croke (00:00):
Hello Worcester and the world, Josh here, your host of the public hearing podcast and radio show. If you tuned into season one, we are excited to be back delivering new episodes to you all about smart cities, systems change and equity centered development discussed through the lens of Worcester, Massachusetts on Public Hearing, we explore challenges facing the community and discuss solutions with a focus on inclusion, equity and prosperity. Public Hearing is created and produced by Action! by Design a design studio, I founded that helps organizations, amplify community power through community engagement and facilitation coalition building and branding and storytelling. You can listen to episodes wherever you get your podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM Worcester's local NPR affiliate station. I believe impactful growth and change are driven by trusting relationships and storytelling. As a designer and facilitator, I know that our experiences and our social location impact how we see and experience the world.
Joshua Croke (01:02):
And I invite our guests to share their stories with us so we can build these relationships and expand our understanding of issues that impact our communities together. Social location is defined as the social position an individual holds within their society and is based upon social characteristics deemed to be important by any given society. Some examples of social characteristics deemed important in the U.S. include social class, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion, and so on. And I mentioned this in our last episode with Etel Haxhiaj, but also want to bring it to this space, and that is the important concept of intersectionality coined by Kimberle Crenshaw in 1989. One of my favorite definitions I've heard from her more recently is intersectionality is a metaphor for understanding the ways that multiple forms of inequality or disadvantage sometimes compound themselves and create obstacles that often are not understood within conventional ways of thinking.
Joshua Croke (02:01):
Intersectionality is not so much a grand theory. It's a prism for understanding certain types of problems. So to share a little with you, our listeners, and with our guests today, here's mine, I'm queer, assigned male at birth. Non-binary white American born and raised in a conservative Baptist middle-class family in central Massachusetts. I am college educated and I am an uncle. And that gives you a little context for how I have moved and navigated and experienced some of the world. And here we go, you're listening to the public hearing podcast. Our guest today is Jennifer Gaskin. Jennifer is the president of the Worcester Caribbean American Carnival Association, and is the moderator of Mutual Aid Facebook group, community connecting residents to resources and support. Jen is also on the Worcester Redevelopment Authority. And thank you so much, Jen, for taking time to come on the show and be with us today.
Jennifer Gaskin (2:57):
Thank you for inviting me Joshua.
Joshua Croke (3:00)
Really looking forward to chatting. And before we dive into discussing Worcester equitable growth and imagining possible futures for our city, I'd like to invite you to share some of your story in any parts of your social location, you feel comfortable sharing with our listeners.
Jennifer Gaskin (03:15):
Yeah, absolutely. So I always say that people's experience is really what drives them in terms of how they respond to stimulus in their environment. So I think it's always important when you're beginning a conversation to know where people come from and where they stand. So I was born in Mississauga, Ontario, which is about, I don't know, 20 minutes outside of Toronto. I then went on almost immediately to what I call home, which is Grenada in the West Indies. I was there until I entered kindergarten, which I came to Boston, Massachusetts. I grew up in Dorchester and Fields Corner. I went to kindergarten through the METCO Program, which is a busing program that bused inner city children out to more affluent suburb communities where they could get a better education. And it was primarily for minority residents of the city.
Jennifer Gaskin (04:21):
So I went my entire school career, from kindergarten all the way to graduating from high school at Western high school. So just think about that dynamic of going to the most affluent suburb in the state of Massachusetts from Dorchester FIelds Corner. So that's kind of who, you know, how I grew up. So code switching, and always having to adjust to my environment has been a constant thing throughout my life. I graduated from Western public schools. I went to a private college, graduated with a degree in psychology. I really wanted to be a journalist, but, you know, as a black woman, I realized I didn't want to be a starving writer either. And you know, to top that off, I gave birth to my son, Lewis at the age of 17.
Jennifer Gaskin (05:16):
So I knew that I had to be a parent and I had to create, you know, an environment for him. So I was a teenage mom. My son, Lewis is now 26 years old. I'm a mom to two other children, 11 and 15. I've been married to my husband, Daniel, who we've been married for 10 years. We've been together for about 18. So obviously I'm heterosexual. Well, not obviously because whatever, I am heterosexual and I'm a mom to a lot of pets. I have three pit bulls. So another area that's very important to me is about, you know, breed-specific legislation and, and bringing that full circle. And like you said I started the Western Caribbean American Carnival Association nine years ago. And I really did it for my daughter who loves to dress up in her costume and masquerade every year.
Jennifer Gaskin (06:19):
So really, you know, that was for her. I’ve been on the Worcester redevelopment authority for probably about eight years now. And that was really important to me as well because as a child growing up in Dorchester, seeing the evolution of Dorchester that it's now on house hunters, when I was growing up, it was like dodging bullets. So, you know, it's really important to me that I'm part of that conversation. And I represent my community as we're talking about, you know, urban revitalization and frankly, you know, gentrification of communities that have been strongholds for, you know, minorities, and building a community and village. So that's who I am.
Joshua Croke (07:06):
Thank you so much, Jen, for sharing, you know, that story and really setting an incredible context for our conversation. And I think let's start there with the kind of experience that you had seeing the change in Dorchester, and also really now working in Worcester. It makes me reflect back on a conversation. I had a couple years ago on a previous show that we hosted and created a podcast called Experience This, where I actually traveled up to New York and went to the South Bronx to meet with Majora Carter, who is a real estate developer who is from that area really coined the term self gentrification and using resident power to drive growth and change. And her reflecting on her own experience, growing up, losing a brother to gun violence at an early age in that community and saying we wanted and needed some change within our community, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the residents who are there. So I'm interested in your, you mentioned gentrification and really some of Worcester's approach of revitalization and I'll, you know, for our listeners, I'm using that word kind of in air quotes, because I think there's a lot tossed around about, Renaissance and revitalization that really does give a lot of focus to, I think, outside development projects that come in and doesn't necessarily look at and celebrate our local, homegrown entrepreneurs, small businesses who are helping to catalyze and drive change.
Jennifer Gaskin (08:44):
And that is, you know, that is completely on target. You know, the example that I give people all the time is in Roxbury, right? So in Roxbury, you know, you have Northeastern University and that area around Ruggles T station and Roxbury crossing was literally like a war zone. When I was growing up, like that was an area, you knew that if you went over there that you had to be on your P's and Q's walk, you know, watching your back essentially. You know, I know people who have gotten, you know, shot in Ruggles T station, you know, I myself have gotten into, you know, altercations and Ruggles T station. Like that was literally, you know, you went in that area, you knew you was coming into the war zone, so you better be ready for whatever comes now, Northeastern University, you know, said, you know what, our university is here.
Jennifer Gaskin (09:37):
We want to attract students from other places. So, you know, we need to work with the city to, you know, do something about this area. And so now when you go to the area around Northeastern you, and I couldn't afford to live there, most people can't afford to live there. You know, frankly you see white people, you know, walking their dogs and, you know, running and whatever, like it's a completely different place. And they did that very strategically. Like you said, they took those opportunities for abandoned buildings, dilapidated buildings, developers came in, they came in and developed them, but they came in and developed them, not for the people who were already in the community. They came in there and developed them to bring people into the city. And so what you started to see happen as these different developments come in, you started to see different people move into the community.
Jennifer Gaskin (10:40):
You started to see things like, you know, predatory loans, you know, people going to, you know, elderly family members and, you know, purchasing their homes or getting them into situations where they lose their homes so that, you know, outside people could come in and then purchase those homes. And so you've basically seen, you know, all of the old, black families that you know, were in Roxbury, moved out. And that's what we're talking about. When we talk about gentrification, we're talking about completely flipping the dynamic of a community. And so when I, you know, early on, when I moved to Woodstock, I used to live in that area. I used to live over on Main South. I used to live behind Clark University. And I only lived there for like a year, but as soon as I moved there, I started to see what was happening.
Jennifer Gaskin (11:36):
And I started to speak to people and in my community and say like, “they're trying to do to Worcester what they did to Boston. They're trying to price you guys out of the market. If you need a housing voucher, they send you somewhere else, right? So like, if you're a Worcester person and you go and try to get section eight, first of all, they're going to give you a section eight voucher for two bedrooms. That's less than what you can afford in the city. So that means that you now have to go to Webster or Oxford or Oxbridge. So now what happens, all those apartments, all those homes, all of those things are up for grabs and then developers and people now from Boston who were trying to escape, you know, paying $3,000 for rent, moved to Worcester, because now it's more affordable and they can use the commuter rail. You know, they've increased the commuter rail Union Station's got to make over a courtesy of WRA. You know, these are all things that they're doing to build a community around us, but not necessarily including us in that conversation.
Joshua Croke (12:41):
And I think that's such a critical thing to look at is really the messaging of what we're hearing about Worcester, not only locally, but what people think and hear about the city outside of the community. I know I moved to Worcester 10 years ago now. So I've been here a good amount of time following, you know, I grew up in central mass, but came to Worcester for school. I went to WPI, which was after a long journey of higher education experiences, ended up graduating and stayed in the city because of my proximity to my Alma mater was helping me with my consulting company that I had just started. And there were these great opportunities that I saw here in the city. And one of the things that I always got when I would talk to friends in Boston, or like happened to be visiting New York, where I also used to live was people hear, “Oh, you're from Worcester. Like, Oh, that's, that's rough or like, Oh, sorry to hear that.”
Jennifer Gaskin (13:46):
Oh, somebody called me, what did somebody say that they refer Worcester to? I can't think, of as like the bowels of Massachusetts, it was something like really, why?
Joshua Croke (13:56):
Right. Right. And then hearing, you know, what I'll often refer to as like behind the podium talk of the city, kind of inviting people to come to Worcester and experience what's going on and how it's changing and how it's growing. And this is why I pushed back on like the Renaissance topic a little, or that descriptor a little bit. Cause I'm like, a Renaissance is like truly like culturally rich flourishing. And that I think is also kind of an offense to people who have been here for decades, doing the work, living in the community, making the culture what it is, which I think is beautiful and thriving in so many ways. And it also to your point of like the renovation of Union Station and some of the other kinds of priorities that the city places on certain projects does send a message kind of marketing Worcester as the Boston adjacent. Right. So it's like, you can work in Boston and live here. You can use the commuter rail. Like you can do that. And I'm like, why don't we focus more effort on building the wealth and power of our residents.
Jennifer Gaskin (15:12):
And I think that, you know, so I'm gonna use my children as an example because I always, you know, when I'm talking to teachers, this is the example that I always give them. Like, my children are very intelligent. Yes. I'm biased. I'm their mom. But a lot of times they don't believe in themselves. Like they don't believe, you know, that they have that ability or they don't believe that they can accomplish a certain thing. And what I've always, you know, when I have a parent teacher conference and they're like, oh, you know, your kid is smart, but you know, he doesn't want to do this or he's not doing this or whatever. I'm like really a lot of their stuff comes from just lack of confidence. Like if you, you know, explain to them that they can do this and that they are smart enough, nine times out of 10, they will blow your socks off.
Jennifer Gaskin (16:00):
But I think, you know, Worcester has that kind of problem because I was talking to somebody the other day and what I said to them is every person that I've met that grew up in Worcester, like they have a negative like, Oh, well, you can't do that in Worcester. And it's like, yeah, but I can't. And like when I'm, when I decided, you know, okay, I'm going to start this, this carnival committee and we're going to have Caribbean carnival in Worcester. And everybody was like, you can't have Caribbean carnival in Worcester. Somebody tried to do that already. And they couldn't do it. And you know, it was a lot of frankly nay-saying and I feel like, honestly, the city granted me, all my permits and did all that stuff because they really didn't think that I was going to be able to pull it off.
Jennifer Gaskin (16:45):
I think that they actually like, “yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll give her the permit. You're not going to,” you know, whatever. But that first year we pulled it off. Not only did we pull it off, we pulled it off and we brought 10,000 people into the city. Right. And I think, you know, and I got after that, there was so many Worcester residents that will, like, we never thought Worcester could do that. We never thought, you know, Worcester could have something like this, but why can't Worcester have stuff like that? I don't like, why does Worcester not believe that it deserves that? And you know, like you said, you came to Worcester for school and you decided to stay. I came, um, because my oldest son, his dad bought a condominium in Shrewsbury and he was living in Hudson and he said, no, I want you guys to come here because I want my son close to him.
Jennifer Gaskin (17:36):
That's how I ended up in Worcester, but I liked it. And I stayed, I had the option to leave and go back, but I stayed. And like, you had the option to leave, but you stayed because you see something here. And that's what I want. You know, everybody who lives here to see is that, you know, we have so many people in our community, you know, from the arts, from the culture, cultural perspective. So many people who have adopted Worcester as their home, that, you know, are intelligent, you know, arts, business entrepreneurs, all kinds of things that we have here in Worcester, look at, you know, like you mentioned earlier, Worcester Mutual Aid. So the Worcester Mutual Aid page was started, you know, amidst the Coronavirus pandemic because members of the community started to see the other members of the community was struggling.
Jennifer Gaskin (18:31):
Whether it be financial, whether it be with food, whether it be with childcare, clothes, whatever it was. And so the Mutual Aid page was born and people can go on the Mutual Aid page and request just about anything. I've even seen people who would go on there and say, you know what, like I'm depressed. I'm stuck in my house. I don't have anything would anybody mind lending me some video games, right? Like those little basic needs. And then the Worcester Community Fridge came about. And now there's a fridge on Main Street. I think it's 910 Main Street at Fantastic Pizza. And then now there's one on Southbridge Street, right under the bridge by the Miss Worcester Diner. And now, you know, we're putting in one at the Printer's building and then there's going to be one going in at Resonate Dispensary.
Jennifer Gaskin (19:21):
But guess what? Every time we fill that fridge, that fridge is empty within hours, I went there last Wednesday morning with food and I filled up the fridge and people were waiting in their cars, patiently waiting on the street, waiting for me to fill it up and come and get what they needed. So as a community, when we talk about urban revitalization and we talk about, you know, doing these things, that's what we need to stand up as a community, as a village and say, okay, these are our needs. And these are who we have in our community that can do this. And like you mentioned in Harlem where people in the community are purchasing the properties that are dilapidated and need to be rehabbed, and they're creating spaces for our community. And that's how we do it. We step in and say, you know what, we're stepping up.
Jennifer Gaskin (20:15):
And we're saying, you know, we want our community and we want to retain our community, but we do agree that there's improvements that need to be made. How do we get there? You know, even on the WRA, we had a lot of conversations around the Great Wall of China, which is on Main Street. And it was, you know, the building, it's an amazing building. It's a historical building, historical facade. And it was dilapidated, right. You know, the Asian family that owns the restaurant, the building, and they were struggling. And so the WRA as part of our urban revitalization plan, that's part of our district. And so conversation started, you know, this is an important building. We want to make sure that things happen. And honestly, the conversation started to go to taking the building by eminent domain. And that's why it's so important that you have people who look like me on these boards and people who think like me on these boards, because I was the one that raised it and said, hold on, this is their family business. This is an Asian woman that you guys are talking about, taking her building by eminent domain. Has anybody had a conversation with her? Does she have a plan? Do you see how this is going to look?
Jennifer Gaskin (21:41):
You know, you have to have a conversation with your community. If there are businesses that are struggling, if the building is a mess, why are we not talking to the owners to try to find out what's going on? Why are we not trying to help them? Why are we not empowering them through grants and support and things through the city for them to be successful? So that's really what it comes down to. The community really needs to come together and they need to speak out and they need to have a voice. All these meetings are public meetings. You can show up, you can say what you want to say. And that's what we need the community to do. The community has to speak up, not speak up on social media. Only you need to speak up, you need to show up at the meetings. You need to let them know. You need to send emails to your city counselors and to the mayor and to the city manager and say these are the issues that I'm concerned about. And that's how you open the door. And that's how you open the conversation, because I can't have a conversation on the WRA about buildings and bringing the community in it, unless somebody brings that conversation to the WRA. Right?
Joshua Croke (22:51):
And so much of what you're talking about, I refer to a Strong Towns, who's coined the term economic gardening, really looking at an economic development strategy as investing in, supporting, listening to and giving the aid, giving agency to residents and business owners to really drive that growth and change. And I think that, you know, that what you were talking about of like, has anyone talked to this woman, right. Is so critical. And that's actually a lot of what I do for my work is facilitate and engage communities for organizations and cities to say, who do we need to be listening to? Who are the experts of these experiences? Because they're living them, right? How do we bring them to the table and prioritize their voice and give them the agency to drive on the solutions that are being picked? And I think so much of these conversations that I have with folks, there's a recognition of this disconnect between residents and capital C city of what A, what an individual has the capacity to do an influence with their own individual voice and B, really how to get involved with the complex.
Joshua Croke (24:13):
And I think intentionally misconstrued in many ways, processes of that involvement, right? Like how do people get an agenda item on the city council meeting or the WRA, like, how are we educating our community and prioritizing that education to say like, this is how you can get involved in how you can make an impact.
Jennifer Gaskin (24:36):
No, absolutely. And I mean, even if you're talking again about like, you know, gentrification like, how do you prevent that? Right? Like you own your properties, right? You own your properties. And since I moved to Worcester everybody that I talked to I'm like buy your house, like buy a house in the city. Otherwise they're going to price you out through rent. Right. Because that, that's just how it works. I mean, even like I was explaining to somebody the other day, like my husband and I bought our current house 10 years ago, the house next door to us sold for a hundred thousand dollars more than what we paid for our house 10 years ago. And it's the exact same layout. They have the exact same house. So that means that now 10 years later, I could put my house on the market for a hundred thousand dollars more than what I paid for it 10 years ago.
Jennifer Gaskin (25:32):
That's how you create generational wealth. That's how you create a sustainable, you know, situation. And that's what we don't teach. We don't teach that. Like, it's not taught in school. Like nobody teaches you about credit and debt. And how do you get a loan? You know, how do you get a loan or a mortgage? Or how does that work? Nobody teaches you that. But most people, I'm gonna just say it, white people get that education from watching their parents, whereas people in the black and Brown community don't get that education because our parents never got their education and their parents never got that education. So we don't ever get it. I mean, I was fortunate enough that my parents were middle-class and most of my family was middle-class. My aunt was a Boston police officer. My grandmother worked as a nurse at Boston Medical Center.
Jennifer Gaskin (26:35):
So I’ve seen home ownership. Right. I’ve seen, you know, how credit works. Like you could get a nice car or, you know, my cousin that had crappy credit, didn't get a car. You know what I mean? Like I figured that out. So I was able, as I grew to figure that out and kind of navigate that and have a resource for that, but there's a lot of people in our community. And you know what, honestly, even like, you know, remember years ago when, when Kanye West got on at the, when Hurricane Katrina was on and he was like, President Bush, doesn't like black people. And my response was President Bush doesn't like poor people, America doesn't like poor people. They don't really care what color you are. You could be white and poor. And they still don't like, you're just a step above me and the Brown people because you're white and poor, but they still don't like you and they still don't care. So you're going to have to figure out how to pull yourself up out of that. But you know, the systems are in place for a reason. They were created to oppress people. So we have, we have to get around that.
Joshua Croke (27:46):
And I was going to ask, so I'm going to ask a question by also using an example or a story. And the question is, what do you say to people, or how do you think about people approaching building and generating wealth when they've been historically oppressed and grew up in situations of poverty that we know are so difficult to rise out of because of oppressive systems and structures. And the story that I'll use is a couple of years ago, I went down to Atlanta, Georgia for the Smart Cities expo, which was the first year that they were hosting it in the U.S. and it was in Georgia. And the final, the closing keynote address was by John Hope Bryant, who's a real estate developer down in Georgia and Tip Ti Harris talking about the gentrification that they were seeing in Georgia and John Hope Bryant had now, I think purchased over 700 properties and homes throughout Atlanta.
Joshua Croke (28:56):
And he built this entire foundation and this entire model where people could rent to own their homes. So he created incentives of like, if you pay rent at, for six months, you're going to get a decrease in rent. Because now that I have a trusting relationship with you, that I can guarantee that you're going to be, you know, a consistent payee on this rent. And I'm going to also give you the option to rent, to own this property, to really further that belief of building wealth for folks who do not have that generational wealth. So I guess I'm interested in your thoughts on, you know, it's one thing to say, like how can people kind of pick themselves up and, you know, purchase property and generate that wealth, but how do you really push back against these systems that constantly knock people down into these cycles of poverty, where that seems like such a mountain to climb?
Jennifer Gaskin (29:56):
No, I totally get it. And I think it starts with putting people in places where they can make a difference. Right. And I'll counter your story with a story as well. Like, I have a good friend. She actually used to be a teacher at South High. And so she actually left South High and is now at Worcester State and she does curriculum for the public school system. And so one of the things that they, Stacy Luster, a number of members of the black community did at Worcester State is they created a program called Black Excellence. And it's an afterschool program for, you know, school aged children essentially. And it helps them, you know, in STEM, uh, you know, science, technology, engineering, mathematics, also they're putting, you know, cultural components into it.
Jennifer Gaskin (30:58):
You know, they're teaching them about financial literacy, you know, so it takes a village, right. And we need to come together as a community and educate one another and build each other up and show each other how to navigate these systems. I feel like, you know, I have been fortunate in a lot of ways. I'm very, very grateful because my life could be so much different. You know, I went, like I said, I went through the METCO program. I graduated with a high school diploma from Western public schools. I still get stuff just because I'm a graduate of Western public school. Like I still, you know, get doors open for me, just because of that. You know, I graduated from a private college again, I get doors just opened for me, just because of that. And you know, it's about making sure that our community gets their equal share of that, right.
Jennifer Gaskin (32:01):
Equal share of, you know, somebody extending the next person grace, equal share of, you know, for example, you know, we have Neighborhood Works right there on Green Street. They have a first time home buyers program. They actually give out grants for people to make down payments on their homes, take advantage of those programs, promote those programs, right? Like, are those programs promoted? No, because guess what it was me that told my son and his girlfriend, go down there and take the first time home buyers things so that you can get a grant and buy a house. So who is sharing that information, right? Who is educating us, who, you know, who is even showing people who are basically struggling to make their rent, that, you know, gentrification is happening around them because honestly when your head is down and you're just trying to make sure that I'm paying rent and that my kids eat, I'm not paying attention to gentrification.
Jennifer Gaskin (33:00):
Cause I'm just trying to make sure that the bills get paid and the kids eat. So it's really about meeting people where they are and educating them forward. And it's also about those of us that are in positions of power, whether the power is just voting yay or nay. When you're in those positions of power, use your voice, use your power to empower others. You're there for that purpose. And that's really how I see myself. And like when people say to me, Oh, well, thank you. I'm like, don't thank me. Just go do what, you know, just go do it, you know, go do it, go speak it, go pay it forward, whatever it may be. And I think that that's really what it comes down to. It comes down to us, you know, maybe in a mob mentality, I don't know, but bringing others up with us absolutely comes down to,
Joshua Croke (33:54):
And I think, you know, you raise a lot of great points in that. And one that really resonates with me is education. And that might be some of my bias showing because of my involvement in some of the education stuff going on in the community. I sit on the board of the Worcester Education Collaborative. Uh, I was also on the steering committee for the Worcester public schools, strategic planning process back in 2017. And I am such a firm believer that education is the pathway forward for everyone. Right. And also looking at education as a lifelong process and being educated in different areas. Like one has the ability to kind of step forward with new knowledge, new understanding. And I think we need that lifelong student mentality to be ingrained in everybody, especially leaders who are often some of the first people to say, well, we know better than the residents because we have this degree or experience, so we know better. So they might be asking for this, but we know better than them because I have an MPA or I have a whatever
Jennifer Gaskin (35:04):
That's right. And like you said, that right there is the problem. You know, I tell people all the time, like I learn every day and most of the time I'm learning from my kids. That's the crazy part. But like, you have to be a person that continuously learns if you're not continuing to learn in your day. Right. Isn't that the same, but it's really, it's true. And when our leaders say that they know what's best for our communities, they don't, because they're not living in the communities, they're removed. You know, from the day-to-day and even myself, like, I don't, you know, I'm not living, you know, on Main South anymore. I don't know what the issues are on Main South because that's not my community. Now ,can I tell you what the issues are in Quinsigamond Village? Yeah.
Jennifer Gaskin (35:52):
Cause that's my community. So, you know, you have to speak to the people that are on the ground. It's just the same as, you know, being a leader at work. Right. So I'm in a leadership role at work, but I always tell everybody that reports to me, I'm always like, well, I'm here to support you. You need to tell me what you need. You need to tell me what I need to be advocating for, you know, to the executive team. Like you have to tell me what you need. That's my job. My job is to support you, not the other way around. And that's kind of the problem with a lot of leaders is that they don't see themselves in that way. I don't know everything, far from it. And like I tell people all the time, I always hire people that know things that I don't.
Jennifer Gaskin (36:33):
Because otherwise, what is the point of me hiring you? I could do it myself. You know what I mean? Like it's just like people just really need to honestly humble themselves. Right. And understand that, you know, you're here to learn. You know, that means that you're allowed to make mistakes, but you have to be able to admit your mistakes and adjust them. Like even myself originally, when I started to hear about the school to prison pipeline, when somebody said it to me originally, and they're like, well, we have to get police out of the school. And I'm like, well, why would we want to take police out of the school? Like if my kid is there trying to learn, and there’s kids that are disruptive, then yeah. They should be removed. And that's how I was thinking about it in my head.
Jennifer Gaskin (37:19):
But somebody had to educate me on what does the school, what are we talking about when we say to school, to prison pipeline? We're talking about criminalizing things that are what kids do, right? Like kids have disagreements and they fight, right. We got broken up by the principal and probably sent to the office or sent home. That's what happens to us. But when you have a police officer in your school and two children get in a fight, then people are getting charged with assault. And now I have an open case. So what happens now? I have an open case, now I can't get a job, right? Now, this is following me from that point on, because now I can't get a job. I live in the inner city. I can't get a job, but guess what? I got to survive. So I'm going to figure out how to survive. So does that mean that I now need to rob you, do I have to sell drugs, but guess what? I'm going to survive. So, at one way or another, I'm going to figure it out. So that starts that cycle.
Jennifer Gaskin (38:20):
You know what I mean? That starts that cycle. But when somebody originally said it to me, I was like, what are you talking about? Like I grew up in the city. I don't even know what you're talking about. You know what I mean? But I had to be educated. Now, if I had just closed off and kept that I would still be walking around with that, and that's wrong. Or even the defund police situation, I'm like, defund the police. What are you going to do? Get rid of the police. Who's going to take, you know, who are you going to call when your house get robbed, you know, gets robbed or whatever. And then somebody explained to me that defund police is more about police reform. Having police actually do what police are supposed to do, which is deal with crime and having other agencies and other support systems for the community, for other things like mental illness, for example, that makes sense. Defund the police standing alone made no sense to me.
Joshua Croke (39:15):
And I think it's so it's, you raise such a good point and I want to bring voice to a couple of the things for our listeners as well, like the time it takes for, the time and opportunity to be educated around a myriad of issues, right. Is something that is so critical and so important, but often can get shut down and unfortunately, if the story isn't told the right way or the branding, isn't correct..
Jennifer Gaskin (39:44):
Exactly. Defund the police is like a perfect example of poor branding in my opinion.
Joshua Croke (39:51):
Well, and it's such an interesting point to talk about because when we're really looking at it and actually reflecting on the conversation that I had with Etel in our last episode, she talked about the city budget as a moral document, right? This is on paper. You can see how we are allocating funding to certain things in our community, which indicate what our priorities are as a city. And when our police budget is almost, you know, 36 or 40% of our entire municipal budget, one begs the question, why is it so large? Or why does it need to be so large, right? Can there be resources allocated elsewhere to actually address the challenges within our system? And you mentioned the school to prison pipeline and a project that I'm working on is very much focused on that issue in the community right now.
Joshua Croke (40:47):
And, this also, you know, as we unpeel the onion to the different layers of this, right, we're looking at how unconscious bias plays a role in the criminalization of black and brown youth, more than white youth. Right. And we're able to not only compare that at the school level of who's being suspended from school, we have instances in Worcester where second and third graders are being suspended, getting out of school suspensions. Right? So there's a question of like, when is the time to suspend a child, right. Kindergarteners, there are stories as well. And when we look and shift to a different system of the juvenile justice system, we see almost a mirror of who's being suspended from school and who's being put in, you know, juvenile detention prison, you know, really. And so by looking at these issues, people also have to have the time privilege. I use time privilege a lot to go into that...
Jennifer Gaskin (41:47):
Even dig into it. Right, and like I just said, if you're struggling to survive, you're not digging into it. That's right. So that's where we have to meet people where they are. Right. That's where you have people in the community who are talking to each other and educating each other, but they have to get that education from somewhere. So that's where I always talk about like meeting people where they are even like, as we talk about vaccinations, like meet people where they are, you know, I've been on the phone all day today talking to people, you know, in Boston about, you know, the, so they, they opened it to, you know, people who live in low income housing, but then nobody will take them for vaccinations except for like Gillette or any of the mass vaccinations center. So I'm confused. How do you expect a low income person to get to Gillette from Boston? Right. Like it doesn't, you know, and again, that's probably one of those situations where it was this leader that was like, I know what to do. And didn't talk to anybody in the community or really understand what the true issues were or the true barriers are.
Joshua Croke (43:04):
Right. And the challenge with systems is they often don't recognize or sit at some of the same tables in which they intersect. And so it's easy to pass the responsibility around to other systems, right. It's like, we're dealing with vaccination access. If people are having a difficult time like getting to the space, that's a transportation issue. You need to go to the transportation authority. Right. And it's like, people who are experiencing this stuff, don't care if it's the WRTA, the WRA, the Worcester police, city hall.
Jennifer Gaskin (43:40):
Yeah just get it together and tell me what to do, just get it together and tell me, how do I get vaccinated, right. Like that, you know? And it's funny. So I work, my full-time job is in the pharmaceutical industry and I'm always like let's have a cross-functional conversation. Right. So just like how you were saying, like, there's other inputs, there's other people who are utilizing this output. Like we all have to get into the room and really understand what everybody needs before we say, this is the plan or the path forward. And it's the same for everything, right? Like, you know, vaccination, dealing with, you know, gun violence in the city, like black on black crime. Like that is such, it's not just as simple as, you know, the black kid picks up the gun and shoots another black kid.
Jennifer Gaskin (44:31):
It's not that simple. There's so much stuff going on underneath all of that, that led us to that point that this person shot the other person. And that's really where we need to get to, we have to, we have this process in our space, that's called corrective action, preventative action. And the first step you have to do as a root cause analysis, what is the root cause of these issues? So that means that you have to go through the effort of going down. Like why, why,why you know, like when the little two year old keeps asking you, why, why, why, why, where does it end? That's what you have to keep asking why until there's no more why.
Joshua Croke (45:12):
Exactly. And actually root cause is really what drives a lot of the design workshops that I facilitate for clients is again, bringing all the stakeholders to a table and saying, what is the root cause of this issue? Right. And in season one of the show, we had Katie Burn on who works for, Mass Department of Youth Services, specifically in an initiative called the Juvenile Detention Alternatives Initiative, JDAI, which is working at reducing the number of young people who are placed in detention. And we had this conversation about this individual focus, like people-based reform versus a place-based reform. And so many programs look at an individual, you know, how can we connect this young person who committed a crime to resources that will get them into a job and get them these other resources that we know to help elevate individuals out of crime or out of these experiences, but not looking at the place-based challenges of things like, you know, red lining and systemic oppression and, you know, the criminalization of like black and Brown communities as root causes of what is manifesting as,
Jennifer Gaskin (46:31):
As this one individual. Right? Exactly. There's just one representation of all of this stuff underneath. Right. You know, like, so last week I bailed my nephew out of the house of correction. And so, you know, I was talking to him and I'm like, listen, here's the thing. You just got to figure out what you want to do. And you have to figure it out from like the very basic level, you know, of what do you want to do? I said, because now you have an opportunity, you've been afforded an opportunity. You've been bailed out, you have a chance, you have a window of opportunity. So you have to really sit down and like, okay, what are the basics of what I need to do? Number one, I need a job. Right? So that's number one, because I need an income. And when I go back to court, I need to tell them like, hey, I'm working, you know, a part of, you know, a functioning member of society, right?
Jennifer Gaskin (47:36):
You got to get your GED, you know, you got to get a place to live. You got to, you know, like, these are the things that like you have to do, but these are at the very basic level that you have to get before you even start talking about how do I keep you out? Right. Right. Like you gotta meet these requirements before we even get to, how do you stay out? So, you know, that's like, how do you tell somebody who's just came out of jail? Like, okay, you here's your list. Right.
Joshua Croke (48:13):
And I wonder what your thoughts are on, and I'll ask the question this way. How do we create a more forgiving society in which people have regular access to opportunities to thrive and to change behaviors and to be given agency and capacity for growth, where so many of our systems have this punitive mindset and this, you know, this is just, I'm going to label this kid bad. And so that's going to carry with him from elementary school to middle school, to their first interaction with police to the first time they try and get a job, how do we create more forgiving and welcoming and truly like embracing systems so that all young people can have that experience of, you know, we fail all the time as people, right. Some people fail and are criminalized. Some people fail and are given a, you know, another door to walk through.
Jennifer Gaskin (49:22):
But I think, you know, it's just like what we talked about with the community. It's like, we have to go to where people are. And I think it's also, representation matters. We talk about that a lot. And you know, so I'm thinking about my oldest son, honestly, because I feel like he was the one that I learned the most from good or bad. But, my oldest son has ADHD. He's super, super smart. And he's a black boy. Right. And fortunately for him, you know, he had a lot of opportunities like his father and I, you know, moved to Beverly, like his first school experience was in Beverly. Like I told you, we moved to Shrewsbury. Like he had some real, like, entitled experiences. But the thing about it was no matter where he went, he was always the black boy.
Jennifer Gaskin (50:20):
Right. And from as early as preschool, they were trying to label him as having ADHD. And you know, what, as a parent, I fought it, you know, because I thought, okay, you guys are trying to tell me something's wrong with my kid is nothing wrong with my kid. You're just trying to label him because he's a black kid and you just want to label him and, you know, whatever. And so I fought it for many, many years. And it wasn't until my son was a sophomore in high school that he was diagnosed with ADHD. And I had to learn that. But I think, you know, we need to start having conversations with our children and we have to listen to what they're saying, because all along, like, as far as back as I can remember, my son was telling me like something's wrong with school?
Jennifer Gaskin (51:10):
Like, school does not work for me. Like he was telling me that like, probably from kindergarten, but I wasn't hearing him. I was so busy, like, okay, I'm not going to let them label my black kid. My kid is going to get every educational opportunity that, you know, I’m like pushing him. You know, he went to like every STEM program at Northeastern. Like he was at MIT. Like I put him in every program and he's like, mom, I would go into class and they'd be trying to teach me math. And you know, his ADHD brain is like, I already know that. So now I'm not going to listen to you. And now I'm going to act up. And now I'm getting kicked out of class and now I'm getting labeled as a bad kid.
Jennifer Gaskin (51:58):
Right. And this whole snowball, like we talked about root cause analysis is because me, mom, wasn't listening because he told me that, you know, like I said, from probably five years old, as soon as he went to kindergarten, he told me something wasn't right between him in school. You know? So I think we need to really hear our children and hear their experiences and the educational system and the leaders in the educational system need to hear them. And they need to make adjustments to accommodate what the children are telling them is happening to them. You know? And from that, it's like, you're instilling that. And we see it now, like we talk about the TikTok generation and stuff like that, because technology has been part of their life from when they were born. Like, it's just part of them. So if we start building that in from the very beginning that we extend grace to one another, it's okay to be different.
Jennifer Gaskin (53:04):
It's okay to learn differently. It's okay to have different needs in the community. Like maybe, you know, this kid needs to get school lunch every day. That shouldn't be a judgment. You know, maybe this kid, their clothes ain’t as nice as that kid’s, like we have to teach people how to extend grace. Like, okay, my color is different. So what? But Jennifer's nice and she's smart. So why do I care what she looks like? Like, that's the kind of thing that we need to start teaching and instilling. And, you know, maybe then, in these institutions or leaders in organizations, maybe their children will start to teach them like how my children teach me every day.
Joshua Croke (53:50):
Wow. Well, thank you so much. And we clearly have to have you on the show again, cause we're close to time and there's so much more that we can talk about, but I really valued this conversation. I appreciate you and the space and time you've given today to have this conversation and really look forward to definitely having to have you on the show again, cause we could talk for a whole other hour easily.
Jennifer Gaskin (54:14):
Yeah. And I mean, I just would ask that, you know, your listeners support, you know, the Mutual Aid opportunities. This is really important. So our community really needs it. And it doesn't have to be monetary. You know, there's a lot of other needs out there, so please, you know, support the Mutual Aid.
Joshua Croke (54:34):
Absolutely. And so people can find Mutual Aid Worcester on Facebook. And is there a website as well?
Jennifer Gaskin (54:41):
No, it's on, Worcester Mutual Aid on Facebook.
Joshua Croke (54:44):
Awesome. So listeners definitely check out Mutual Aid Worcester on Facebook and the Community Fridge Project as well. It's really incredible. And Jen, thank you so much for all of your support and leadership in our community. Thank you for listening to Public Hearing, our podcast and radio show that airs Wednesdays at 6:00 PM on WICN 90.5 FM Worcester's only NPR affiliate station. Thank you so much to Jen Gaskin for being our guest today on the show. I'm your host, Joshua Croke. What do you want us to explore on Public Hearing? Let us know @publichearing.com. Public Hearing is created and produced by Action! by Design. You can learn more about our work in community engagement and facilitation coalition building and helping organizations build inclusive innovation ecosystems @actionbydesign.co that's dot co and not dot com. Our audio producer is Giuliana D'Orazio. The show's music is also by Giuliano D'Orazio. And if you're looking for custom music, visit musicbygiuliano.com. Thank you to Eric Gratton and Molly Gammon, who also support the production of Public Hearing. If you'd like to learn more about our 15 second features to share your work with Worcester and the world, visit our website @publichearing.co. If you have ideas for guests or issues you'd like to hear discuss, send us a note @publichearingatactionbydesign.co. Thanks for listening.
